HEMS: B429 vs AW109
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HEMS: B429 vs AW109
Hello,
I work in a HEMS Sea H24 IFR operation with AW109. Covering islands up to 100nm, so our operation is mostly at SL. Fuel burn circa 200Kh/hr. Due to weight limitations we can load no more than 400Kg, sometimes even less, greatly reducing our endurance.
MTOW: 3000Kg
Empty weight + HEMS Kit + floats kit: 2200Kg
That leaves us 800Kg for: Doctor, nurse, 2 pilots + patient + fuel
Most times going up to 3000Kg with just 400Kg out of the 583Kg we could load with an aux. fuel tank. Forget about CAT A operation (ends at 2850Kg)
That gives us and endurance of 2hr to zero fuel
so we have to refuel in every island we visit. It feels like driving a F1 thinking all the time about pit stops 
Our client wants to change helicopter and go for one that could, if possible, do a round trip without refuelling AND to pay around the same or a little more. Does that exist?
Forget about the AS365N3 and B412. Too expensive.
The AW109S has a MTWO of 3175Kg but its empty weight is higher and burns more fuel making it similar to the AW109.
It has to be something similar. The client is considering the B429 and has asked us to get info and experience from current operators and fellow pilots.
A RFM and a W&B with HEMS kit would be really appreciated.
PS: Remember, the only possible option they will consider would be a helicopter a little more expensive, no more. Forgot to mention that they are not prone to the EC135
I work in a HEMS Sea H24 IFR operation with AW109. Covering islands up to 100nm, so our operation is mostly at SL. Fuel burn circa 200Kh/hr. Due to weight limitations we can load no more than 400Kg, sometimes even less, greatly reducing our endurance.
MTOW: 3000Kg
Empty weight + HEMS Kit + floats kit: 2200Kg
That leaves us 800Kg for: Doctor, nurse, 2 pilots + patient + fuel
Most times going up to 3000Kg with just 400Kg out of the 583Kg we could load with an aux. fuel tank. Forget about CAT A operation (ends at 2850Kg)
That gives us and endurance of 2hr to zero fuel
so we have to refuel in every island we visit. It feels like driving a F1 thinking all the time about pit stops Our client wants to change helicopter and go for one that could, if possible, do a round trip without refuelling AND to pay around the same or a little more. Does that exist?
Forget about the AS365N3 and B412. Too expensive.
The AW109S has a MTWO of 3175Kg but its empty weight is higher and burns more fuel making it similar to the AW109.
It has to be something similar. The client is considering the B429 and has asked us to get info and experience from current operators and fellow pilots.
A RFM and a W&B with HEMS kit would be really appreciated.
PS: Remember, the only possible option they will consider would be a helicopter a little more expensive, no more. Forgot to mention that they are not prone to the EC135
Last edited by Thorond0r; 30th Jan 2014 at 23:39.
Night, IFR, Over Water.....Single Engine?
You Sir are a braver Man than I!
You Sir are a braver Man than I!
HEMS: B429 vs AW109
Hi,
Ever thought about a BK 117?
MAUW 3350 kg , Fuelburn also about 200kg/h
We operate with 2 pilots, operator, FLIR, SX16, auxiliary fuel tank (for IFR-routings) and have an operating radius of about 60 nm, which allows us getting there, search, and getting home without refueling.
With 500kg fuel you should easyly cover your 100nm task to and back...
Ever thought about a BK 117?
MAUW 3350 kg , Fuelburn also about 200kg/h
We operate with 2 pilots, operator, FLIR, SX16, auxiliary fuel tank (for IFR-routings) and have an operating radius of about 60 nm, which allows us getting there, search, and getting home without refueling.
With 500kg fuel you should easyly cover your 100nm task to and back...
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I agree with FB!
B429 or EC135 can't solve your problems.
Only possible solutions for you are EC145(BK117C2) / EC145T2 ( waiting list is more than 2 years...) / used BK117C1
...or, maybe you can check the prices of 2-3 years old B412 / N3 / EC155 ...
JR
B429 or EC135 can't solve your problems.
Only possible solutions for you are EC145(BK117C2) / EC145T2 ( waiting list is more than 2 years...) / used BK117C1
...or, maybe you can check the prices of 2-3 years old B412 / N3 / EC155 ...
JR
Location: 2nd largest european country (and no, Russia doesn´t count)
=> 7.000 lbs MTOW only, for B429
no space for enough fuel, with full HEMS equipment & crew...
"Night, IFR, Over Water.....Single Engine?
You Sir are a braver Man than I!"
Well, two engines does mean double the chance of engine failure. How many of these light twins really can get you home from out at sea on one engine with a patient, EMT and two pilots aboard?
You Sir are a braver Man than I!"
Well, two engines does mean double the chance of engine failure. How many of these light twins really can get you home from out at sea on one engine with a patient, EMT and two pilots aboard?
Forget about getting a clean answer from anyone who flies a 429 for EMS when it comes to how much they actually weigh on the helipad and how much they can carry.
It's either the fuel or the patient for anything but the next county over.
Well, two engines does mean double the chance of engine failure. How many of these light twins really can get you home from out at sea on one engine with a patient, EMT and two pilots aboard?
109SP, EC-145 and yes even the 429 can do that. What you are not thinking about is when you DO LOSE the ONE engine you have in a single. Does not matter how big that engine is, your OEI performance is going to suck
.
It's either the fuel or the patient for anything but the next county over.
Well, two engines does mean double the chance of engine failure. How many of these light twins really can get you home from out at sea on one engine with a patient, EMT and two pilots aboard?
109SP, EC-145 and yes even the 429 can do that. What you are not thinking about is when you DO LOSE the ONE engine you have in a single. Does not matter how big that engine is, your OEI performance is going to suck
.
Tott.....you do have a way of politely bursting bubbles don't you!
It would be interesting to get Air Zermatt's angle on this. EMS B429 in the mountainous country of Switzerland, limited to 7000lb (3175kg) mtow by EASA rules.
This is a VERY simplistic look at the numbers, and I'm sure more bits and pieces need to be included here. Bell say in this doc the empty weight of a 429 1P-IFR is 1911kg. Aerolite told me recently their HEMS kit for a 429 is 108kg. Full fuel is 821 litres x 0.8 (rule-of-thumb!) = 657kg.
So, 3175 -1911 - 108 - 657 leaves 499kg for the people, EMS supplies and whatever else you need to add to "Empty weight" to make it flyable. For example, Aerolite's number includes an oxygen rack for two 5 litre bottles, but not the bottles... The "Cabinet for medical equipment" will not include the weight of its expected contents. The basic weight will not include avionics options. And so on.
Air Zermatt also have a hoist which would add another 40kg or so. Thorond0r will need to find the weight of floats...
Anyone else please chip in with any other weights which need to be considered her? Or a calculation of range based on how much there is really left for fuel given the reserves needed when you take into account two pilots, one (or two?) medical specialists and the patient....
This is a VERY simplistic look at the numbers, and I'm sure more bits and pieces need to be included here. Bell say in this doc the empty weight of a 429 1P-IFR is 1911kg. Aerolite told me recently their HEMS kit for a 429 is 108kg. Full fuel is 821 litres x 0.8 (rule-of-thumb!) = 657kg.
So, 3175 -1911 - 108 - 657 leaves 499kg for the people, EMS supplies and whatever else you need to add to "Empty weight" to make it flyable. For example, Aerolite's number includes an oxygen rack for two 5 litre bottles, but not the bottles... The "Cabinet for medical equipment" will not include the weight of its expected contents. The basic weight will not include avionics options. And so on.
Air Zermatt also have a hoist which would add another 40kg or so. Thorond0r will need to find the weight of floats...
Anyone else please chip in with any other weights which need to be considered her? Or a calculation of range based on how much there is really left for fuel given the reserves needed when you take into account two pilots, one (or two?) medical specialists and the patient....
Helihub,
Having operated in CH in the past I can offer a slightly different view.
It is unlikely in CH that you can fly more than 10 minutes from a Jet Fuel bowser!
Take a look at the endurance of the old A109K2 for example.
Helicopter flight in CH is up and down, not along.
From one operating base you can probably see the next one!
Having operated in CH in the past I can offer a slightly different view.
It is unlikely in CH that you can fly more than 10 minutes from a Jet Fuel bowser!
Take a look at the endurance of the old A109K2 for example.
Helicopter flight in CH is up and down, not along.
From one operating base you can probably see the next one!
I can imagine that. How would that compare with EMS operations in other countries do you think? How much fuel would really be needed for your calculations to satisfy the authorities?
Would you work on the basis of having to return to base after every shout to refuel? What if you had a second shout just as you were completing the first one? It's not something I routinely do (hence open admission of a "simplistic view" in my last post!), so a better understanding is welcome.
Would you work on the basis of having to return to base after every shout to refuel? What if you had a second shout just as you were completing the first one? It's not something I routinely do (hence open admission of a "simplistic view" in my last post!), so a better understanding is welcome.
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Ever thought about a BK 117?
When comparing 109 E & S you will be surprised to see that S burns less fuel for same speed!
This is a VERY simplistic look at the numbers
How much fuel would really be needed for your calculations to satisfy the authorities?
. It would not be possible then to make an IFR leg
Last edited by Thorond0r; 31st Jan 2014 at 16:30.
Helihub, thanks for the numbers. Medical interiors come in all kinds of salsa but 108 Kg sound suspiciously on the light side if anything. Having flown EMS for several years in a long range IFR operation I can tell you that 108Kg is likely just the basic needs.
Avoid imitations
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A 109SP will provide about 850 kgs of useful load. An S is up to 100 kgs lighter. Bearing in mind that both aircraft have the same MAUW, it can carry slightly more.
