India offered VIP V-22 Osprey
Thread Starter
India offered VIP V-22 Osprey
In light of the recent events with AW, the plot thickens with
Bell-Boeing offers VIP V-22 to India to replace AW101 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
Bell-Boeing offers VIP V-22 to India to replace AW101 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
Last edited by chopper2004; 27th Jan 2014 at 20:03.
Just a point on money:
If the Indian tactic of suspending the contract is aimed at getting the price reduced, then there aren't the dollars to support the V-22 in the first place.
If the Indian suspension is due to the cost being too high and they just can't fit it into the budget, then the V-22 isn't affordable either.
While I appreciate the brand name opportunism on this one, I do not see the VIP V-22 as a viable option at present.
If the Indian tactic of suspending the contract is aimed at getting the price reduced, then there aren't the dollars to support the V-22 in the first place.
If the Indian suspension is due to the cost being too high and they just can't fit it into the budget, then the V-22 isn't affordable either.
While I appreciate the brand name opportunism on this one, I do not see the VIP V-22 as a viable option at present.
Thread Starter
True I agree Wolf, though a bit of naivety could creep in and make assumptions the folks in Arlington would dangle a price reduction!! Well from the Boeing side of the agreement seeming as the Indians have ordered AH-64D (not sure if its absolute, done and dusted signed and sealed) and of course bought the P-8I Poseidon, so there is a splash of cash somewhere?
Plus apart from us Brits who've had experience of flying the XV-15 (amongst other TPs from Japan and France) and current on exchange CV-22, have any of their test pilots done any previews on a V-22, does anyone know?
Cheers
Plus apart from us Brits who've had experience of flying the XV-15 (amongst other TPs from Japan and France) and current on exchange CV-22, have any of their test pilots done any previews on a V-22, does anyone know?
Cheers
Lone, this logic is lost on many, as we have seen the US Army's impending plan to scrap Kiowas in favor of Apaches in the scout role all in the name of "cost savings".
But back to India, perhaps its not a "unit cost" consideration but a "programmatic cost".
The argument being that you can do more with a more expensive tiltrotor than you can with a cheaper helicopter, so the savings lie in fleet size reductions, logistics, and perhaps manufacturer support/offset.
But back to India, perhaps its not a "unit cost" consideration but a "programmatic cost".
The argument being that you can do more with a more expensive tiltrotor than you can with a cheaper helicopter, so the savings lie in fleet size reductions, logistics, and perhaps manufacturer support/offset.
Program costs often require a sizeable number of units to accrue, don't they
VIP role seems a small package eligible for savings, but your larger point on offsets and multi facted contracts/buys makes commercial sense.
In re the scout deal, the Apache replacing Kiowa 1 for 1 in scouting isn't where the Army is going. Part of the scout/aerial recon mission is being taken up by various sized UAV's.
Consider the missions of Cav and AirCav
Screen
Guard
Cover
Area Security
Your mix of Apache and UAV is different for each of the above missions, with Cover being plussed up with armed recon, and screen being low on armed recon, with eyes on target/enemy a major feature of the first three.
Area security covers a lot of different detail, and can be provided by a mix as well.
VIP role seems a small package eligible for savings, but your larger point on offsets and multi facted contracts/buys makes commercial sense.
In re the scout deal, the Apache replacing Kiowa 1 for 1 in scouting isn't where the Army is going. Part of the scout/aerial recon mission is being taken up by various sized UAV's.
Consider the missions of Cav and AirCav
Screen
Guard
Cover
Area Security
Your mix of Apache and UAV is different for each of the above missions, with Cover being plussed up with armed recon, and screen being low on armed recon, with eyes on target/enemy a major feature of the first three.
Area security covers a lot of different detail, and can be provided by a mix as well.
Agreed, but is not the support, maintenance, spares, pilot training and CPFH of an AH64 orders of magnitude greater than a 406?
And thats just the Apache aircraft cost numbers, ignoring associated costs of requisite UAV assets for the mission!
And thats just the Apache aircraft cost numbers, ignoring associated costs of requisite UAV assets for the mission!
While cost per flight hour is surely higher, no question, the cost savings of deleting an entire Type Model Series, its entire training and manpower tail, and its simulation and other cost centers begins to add up. I'll suggest to you that the Army will reduce the flt hours per airframe budget over the next few years. As O & M funded things go, that is a predictable source of "savings" services resort to. Crew readiness ... of course it will suffer. It happens every time we have a defense drawdown/contraction. 
That is a risk the politicos are willing to take, time and again, in the American Defense appropriations world.
Army has to reduce manpower as the service shrinks. If you remove an entire TMS, you can cherry pick some of the talent in that community and fold them into the surviving programs (I saw this happen in the Navy over 20 years ago, in both the A-6 communiy and the SH-2 community), and shut off the recurring plant and maintenance costs associated with same, or refurb it to accomodate the surviving program, or a new/emerging program.
That is a risk the politicos are willing to take, time and again, in the American Defense appropriations world. Army has to reduce manpower as the service shrinks. If you remove an entire TMS, you can cherry pick some of the talent in that community and fold them into the surviving programs (I saw this happen in the Navy over 20 years ago, in both the A-6 communiy and the SH-2 community), and shut off the recurring plant and maintenance costs associated with same, or refurb it to accomodate the surviving program, or a new/emerging program.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Interim solution? If so could become the permanent solution, given Indian procurement timescales...
India will purchase VIP version of Mi-17V-5 helicopter
I/C
India will purchase VIP version of Mi-17V-5 helicopter
I/C
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can see India considering purchasing a small number of V-22s for VIP use, even though the V-22 will cost at least 3X what a Mi-17V-5 does. A V-22 VIP fleet would give some prestige to the Indian government agency responsible for transporting domestic and foreign dignitaries. The V-22 also has significantly greater range and speed than the Mi-17V-5, and provides a more comfortable ride, which are important considerations for VIP transport.
One other thing to consider is that India would gain technical knowledge of tiltrotor aircraft from operating their own fleet of V-22s. This type of technical knowledge would be very valuable to the Indian aerospace sector.
One other thing to consider is that India would gain technical knowledge of tiltrotor aircraft from operating their own fleet of V-22s. This type of technical knowledge would be very valuable to the Indian aerospace sector.
One other thing to consider is that India would gain technical knowledge of tiltrotor aircraft from operating their own fleet of V-22s. This type of technical knowledge would be very valuable to the Indian aerospace sector.
Not to mention their Chinese buddies...
Not to mention their Chinese buddies...
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Across Continents
Age: 65
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Indian VIP requirement would probably be for landings upto 15000 ft at let's say 25 C and also landings on dusty small helipads surrounded by surging crowds .....also a machine to sanitize the helipad earlier with a security group.
Both moving together from helipad to helipad .
I remember reading earlier that it did require a chemical toilet too for the machine ...
Wonder if the V-22 will meet these and many other such specific requirements ??
As to the Chinese angle the Tibetan plateau is at an average altitude of 15000 ft and I'm not sure what kind of range /payload capability a V-22 would offer at such altitudes from the Indian plains across the Himalayas ??
Both moving together from helipad to helipad .
I remember reading earlier that it did require a chemical toilet too for the machine ...
Wonder if the V-22 will meet these and many other such specific requirements ??
As to the Chinese angle the Tibetan plateau is at an average altitude of 15000 ft and I'm not sure what kind of range /payload capability a V-22 would offer at such altitudes from the Indian plains across the Himalayas ??
prehar, if operations were to routinely be conducted at 15,000' MSL, I suspect there would need to be some test flying done to confirm the "box" such operations could fit into, and the oxygen requirements. My review of some old performance charts suggest that there'd need to be some very careful mission planning to make such missions effective.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Across Continents
Age: 65
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lonewolf ,
VIP s in India generally need to travel across the country in a BBJ and move to a smaller helipad in a helicopter from the nearest airfield .
Given this basic requirement and the fact that the last 50-100 miles may take them to a desert , mountainous or built up helipad I don't see a great advantage in the V-22 as compared to a conventional helicopter vis a vis it's cost of procurement / operation / maintenance .
With regard to the Indian Aerospace industry and the military .....the Army and the IAF would love to lay their hands on a tilt rotor ....maybe the VIP V-22 will give them a first look !!
India is in the process of raising its first Mountain Strike Corps of about 80000 soldiers (with elements similar to the 101 Airborne ) keeping the Chinese threat in mind .
Most military analysts speculate that such a force would need assets that can transport men and material from the Indian plains across the mountains into Tibet .....maybe the V-22 could figure in that calculus along with other helicopters like the Chinook / CH-53s / Mi-38 .
However , for the Aerospace industry a Bell -609 may hold more promise in terms of license production and component manufacture looking ahead .
VIP s in India generally need to travel across the country in a BBJ and move to a smaller helipad in a helicopter from the nearest airfield .
Given this basic requirement and the fact that the last 50-100 miles may take them to a desert , mountainous or built up helipad I don't see a great advantage in the V-22 as compared to a conventional helicopter vis a vis it's cost of procurement / operation / maintenance .
With regard to the Indian Aerospace industry and the military .....the Army and the IAF would love to lay their hands on a tilt rotor ....maybe the VIP V-22 will give them a first look !!
India is in the process of raising its first Mountain Strike Corps of about 80000 soldiers (with elements similar to the 101 Airborne ) keeping the Chinese threat in mind .
Most military analysts speculate that such a force would need assets that can transport men and material from the Indian plains across the mountains into Tibet .....maybe the V-22 could figure in that calculus along with other helicopters like the Chinook / CH-53s / Mi-38 .
However , for the Aerospace industry a Bell -609 may hold more promise in terms of license production and component manufacture looking ahead .
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somerset
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
couple of observations
The VVIP AW101 contract hasn't been cancelled, it's been terminated and going to arbitration, there are 3 in service with the IAF
also there ain't anything anymore called a BELL 609, its Agustawestland only now hence AW609...
DM
also there ain't anything anymore called a BELL 609, its Agustawestland only now hence AW609...
DM
prehar: seems that a better answer than mine came in the larger V-22 thread, led by Jack Carson's short answer.
Thanks for the insight into the requirements side, that's a tough nut to crack.
Thanks for the insight into the requirements side, that's a tough nut to crack.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Across Continents
Age: 65
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lone wolf , SansAnhedral ,
Thanks for your inputs ...I have looked at the V- 22 thread and read Jack Carson's link and the others.....the V-22 does have its advantages but at a price !!
The Indian AW-101 deal with AW has gone into arbitration on graft charges and knowing how these pan out it'll take ages to resolve .
Meanwhile the movement of VIPs would be hampered and so it seems as an interim measure the Mi-17V-5 s might be considered to bridge the gap.
In the past Mi-8s and Mi-17s were used by the VIPs and the AW -101 was a replacement after a lengthy procurement process .
Thanks for your inputs ...I have looked at the V- 22 thread and read Jack Carson's link and the others.....the V-22 does have its advantages but at a price !!
The Indian AW-101 deal with AW has gone into arbitration on graft charges and knowing how these pan out it'll take ages to resolve .
Meanwhile the movement of VIPs would be hampered and so it seems as an interim measure the Mi-17V-5 s might be considered to bridge the gap.
In the past Mi-8s and Mi-17s were used by the VIPs and the AW -101 was a replacement after a lengthy procurement process .
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by dangermouse
there are 3 in service with the IAF
Crikey, chief!
Agusta fiasco: India to hunt for new VVIP copters
Times of India Jan 7, 2014
India will have to hunt for new plush and secure helicopters for the President, PM and other top dignitaries because the three AgustaWestland AW-101 helicopters already inducted with "limited spares" cannot constitute a viable squadron to ferry VVIPs around.
The government last week scrapped the 556.26- million Euro deal for the 12 AW-101 helicopters, only three of which were delivered before execution of the contract was frozen in February 2013 due to allegations of massive kickbacks.
IAF so far was undertaking "minimal sorties" of the three AW-101 helicopters to maintain their "flying currency" — if a chopper remains on the ground for over a month, it has to go in for mandatory checks and servicing — but a big question mark now hangs over the fate of the three machines.
Times of India Jan 7, 2014
India will have to hunt for new plush and secure helicopters for the President, PM and other top dignitaries because the three AgustaWestland AW-101 helicopters already inducted with "limited spares" cannot constitute a viable squadron to ferry VVIPs around.
The government last week scrapped the 556.26- million Euro deal for the 12 AW-101 helicopters, only three of which were delivered before execution of the contract was frozen in February 2013 due to allegations of massive kickbacks.
IAF so far was undertaking "minimal sorties" of the three AW-101 helicopters to maintain their "flying currency" — if a chopper remains on the ground for over a month, it has to go in for mandatory checks and servicing — but a big question mark now hangs over the fate of the three machines.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...I have looked at the V- 22 thread and read Jack Carson's link and the others.....the V-22 does have its advantages but at a price !!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by riff_raff
the AW101 contract was 556M Euros for 12 aircraft which
(Plus gold-plated khazi, etc.)
I/C
