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Entering autos: discussion split from Glasgow crash thread

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Entering autos: discussion split from Glasgow crash thread

Old 14th Dec 2013, 17:48
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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...

Why...I'm pretty NL has bumped into JR and knows what they do!
Now! Where's those ****** hat pins
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 18:47
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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What is it Nick! You canít accept that youíre a test pilot/engineer and Sikorsky salesman and have minimal experience in bush work with light and medium helicopters. Which constitutes the biggest part of the industry numerically I guess.

You have a tremendous knowledge about the flight test, development and theory end of this business and I wonít get into a head-butting contest with you in your specialized arena. Iíd be taking a knife to a gunfight!

But you are not the all-knowing guru in all aspects of this business, regardless of the lavish praise placed on you by many. I donít think you have any idea what itís like for most guys working in the less rarefied atmosphere.
Iíd like to know when was the last time you worked a machine in the typical end user mode. Excluding military and offshore clients?
------------
Chest beating - your childish response when cornered?

170í is just my preferred line length when working 100% legally in an OGE hover in the bush, ever hear of part 133?

Where does taxing driving fit in? Where do passengers. Where do you tube videos?

I work much of the time in a hover between 100 and 230ícompletely legally and I did it in H models and 205ís for many years, so I guess I spent a lot of time contemplating the HV diagram or dead manís curve as you prefer.

Not everyone flies high end state of the art equipment, not everyone wants to! Some people are very happy bumming around in Hueyís and whatnot and refuse to be bullied by someone beginning to believe the admiration fawned on him by rookies.

There's no doubt that the IP's in Penticton are experts, but because they are, they help the rest of us to survive in a world of under-powered older machines, because that's what many of the rest of us fly! And in spite of your consistent comments that everyone should upgrade to the latest and greatest gear, the working end of the market can't or won't support it financially.

I post very rarely, and typically only about the work I do. External load operations.

You on the other hand are an expert on everything! and jumped in half cocked saying bullshit like:

1) The Dead Man's Curve is a decent guide to how much trouble you are in. If below 250 to 300 feet AGL when the engine quits at a hover, you WILL crash.

I pointed out that this is done daily, and rather than let it slide you had to jump in and try to bluff your way thru it with insults and bravado!

...
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 19:06
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Lighten Up

Courage to spare? Work in air
Engine fails, learn right details
In a chopper, it seems proper
Unless you dare, make a flare
But in a hover, do not bother!
In a plane there's much less pain
RT call, then touch down in stall.
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 19:17
  #124 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 170' View Post
What is it Nick! You canít accept that youíre a test pilot/engineer and Sikorsky salesman and have minimal experience in bush work with light and medium helicopters. Which constitutes the biggest part of the industry numerically I guess.

You have a tremendous knowledge about the flight test, development and theory end of this business and I wonít get into a head-butting contest with you in your specialized arena. Iíd be taking a knife to a gunfight!

But you are not the all-knowing guru in all aspects of this business, regardless of the lavish praise placed on you by many. I donít think you have any idea what itís like for most guys working in the less rarefied atmosphere.
Iíd like to know when was the last time you worked a machine in the typical end user mode. Excluding military and offshore clients?
Before you embarrass yourself any further, I strongly suggest that you research Nick's background before he became a test pilot.

He does know what he is talking about as an all round helicopter pilot and good egg.
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 19:36
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Senior Pilot

I know much about Nick Lappos and have shown him the respect he has earned in his field of expertise as a high flying test engineer. That does not give him the right to insult me. I have only a little less overall experience than Nick in terms of years albeit in the simple working arena, and have earned my right to an opinion! Or is that unreasonable of me.

I hold to my position that Nick has little experience in the 'workaday' world of helicopter operations at the typical level as his comments over the years reveal this. I did not try to disrespect his professional standing in general.
But His life has been spent in a different arena!
Perhaps grander in many respects, but the proof that infallibility has no favorites, look at the last video...
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 19:41
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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SLFool
Impressive but I'm guessing the number of people who can do this reliably is about as tiny as the margin for error is
I used to do that in my Enstrom. No problem.
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 21:26
  #127 (permalink)  
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170'

I see nothing insulting in what Nick posted. I suggest you've either misread his post or seen something that I haven't.
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 21:52
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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If you visit Penticton BC. You will find hovering autos from 100 to 150' performed all day long in Bell 206's.Zero forward airspeed, just a vertical hovering auto.
Ask for a full fuel load, engine shutdown demonstration.
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 21:58
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Senior Pilot View Post
HC,

Well, that shows you in your true colours. I trust your friends will show better judgement when they step up to the mark for you.
My point really is that I would like to think that moderators, in a position of power and influence, use that power and influence impartially. I suppose the difficulty is that it's not clear whether you are posting as an individual with your own personal opinion, or as a moderator. Short of having 2 identities on the forum, I'm not sure what the answer is but perhaps, when supporting your friends, you could say that is what you are doing, rather than somehow reflecting the opinion of "the forum" in an official way.

But anyway, I stand by my post. NL has a lot of good points but, just like everyone else, he isn't perfect. It is always dangerous to put total and unquestioning faith in another's opinion.
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 22:22
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Senior Pilot...

Nick's a big boy and more than capable of defending himself.
Is it the role of a moderator to defend his friends? I thought you were supposed to be an impartial bystander simply maintaining a pre-determined level of decorum within the forum. Nick has plenty of support from many fans on this site.Surely you could at least use a different user name to support your buddy and display your feelings as a regular poster, rather than add unfair weight to your thoughts as an Official of the website!

As for your comment of yours regarding Nicks previous experience in 'workaday' operations. He's been in 'flight test' since 1973 according to the latest Bio, so I'm guessing that 'workaday' experience is passed it's shelf life by now? Although I still have trouble putting driving a snake in the 'workaday' world?

A final point. I challenged Nick on one issue, it has morphed into an apparent hatred I must have for Nick, and that's not the case.

I have given him huge credit where huge credit is due in 'flight test' and high level formulae, but argue about his being out of touch with end users at my level. My level being heavily populated with older airframes often driven by older pilots who spend a lot of time in the HV diagram and we do know what we're doing (much of the time)

I'm superstitious by nature so I'm going to hang it up now as I just realized that I have sim Monday and then a 12 hour flight to go hang out in the HV for 30 days again. Luck might have it that I get a double flameout at 200' and **** up the recovery attempt, which would give you and Nick the biggest 'Gotcha' of all time... so that's all from me!

As far as I'm concerned, No hard feelings!

ps: HC posted while I was writing, it wasn't a set-up re your impartiality!
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 22:41
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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170's posts have been reasoned and moderate and valuable, whether you agree with him or not.
Nick Lappos' post was informative but could well be read as belligerent and demeaning, in anyones language, and this has detracted from what is otherwise a very valuable contribution.
I for one want both these contributors to continue, but in a civil discussion that contributes to this important topic.
Senior Pilot is not helping, this time - can he please steer this back on topic?
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 22:45
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Helicopter Safety

As a lay person with regard to helicopter flight, what I take from all these discussions is that helicopter flying is inherently dangerous when hovering below 6-700 feet and flying at slow or very high speeds when close to the ground. Pretty much any rescue operation, surveillance or low level lifting work involves flying for extended periods within the performance avoidance curves.

The concept of helicopters seems to have been sold to the general public on their ability to hover, fly slowly and great manouverability together with the ability to drift to the ground like thistledown using autorotation in the event that things go badly wrong at any time.

It seems that the time has come when we should really be considering airships for these tasks since they seem to be capable of similar flight roles and when filled with helium are inherently safer. This is especially applicable over populated areas.

Clearly helicopters are still needed, for example, by the military and search and rescue in the teeth of a North Atlantic gale, but are we using the right tool for the job now that possibly better and eventually cheaper alternatives could be manufactured?
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 22:57
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Helicopters only have an "avoid curve" if they are either single engined, or twin engined above a certain weight. Therefore the answer is to fly twins at an appropriate weight which, with some modern types, can be close to max all up weight.

Alternatively, consider just how much risk there is of a gas turbine engine failure. For aerial work over non-congested areas it is probably better to spend the money on top notch maintenance, HUMS etc rather than on the extra cost of a twin. After all, if you eliminate any risk from an engine failure, helicopters and their pilots have a habit of finding alternative ways to crash.

Airships have been around for a long time. If it were advantageous to use them, I sure that would happen. They are not used in these roles for a good reason.
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 23:25
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Airships!

The idea of a quick-reaction airship is an odd one.

The chances of launching airships in Glasgow's windy weather more than 20% of the time is also of concern.

Apologies if that seemed brusque - no offence to raising the idea of airships, just the usefulness of airships.

I contend that the features of loitering airships over the tropical pacific in WWII are especially different from those desired by coppers to whizz about over Glasgow. The US Navy abandoned airships 50 years ago, presumably for good reason.

The criminal community is probably wise enough to run and hide on the airship-shadow side of a building, knowing they'd have minutes not seconds before it moved to bring them back into view, especially if it was to their east, given the prevailing winds.

Instances of arson on parked police helicopters suggest that they are a major impediment to criminals. I suspect that an airship would have less chance of being targeted for malicious damage on the ground.

Last edited by awblain; 15th Dec 2013 at 09:18. Reason: ettiquette?
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Old 14th Dec 2013, 23:45
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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I thought the idea was too good to be true.
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Old 15th Dec 2013, 01:17
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Ah....but with an Airship cruising 60-80 Knots and an endurance of a couple of days....quick response is a moot point. The Craft is in the air already....and has been for a day or so.

Some folks need to remember the etiquette in this parlor......play the ball folks.....not the player.

We all have contributions to make....even if we do not always agree.


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Old 15th Dec 2013, 06:39
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Were we talking about opinions, 170', it would be interesting, but we are talking about facts. I respect those who must fly into the H-V avoid area (perhaps such as you - we cant know for sure because you do not identify yourself) but that doesn't change the lethality of an engine failure in that region.
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Old 15th Dec 2013, 07:36
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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The video is of a constant attitude EOL, not a vertical zero airspeed one.

It had been taught for many years in the Brit Mil and is a perfectly normal exercise. It is flown at 30 -35 kts until the last 100 feet or so when the attitude is maintained (hence the name constant attitude) and then a check with the lever at about 30' followed by the cushion at about 5'.

It is not, however, even slightly representative of a vertical, zero airspeed EOL from a high hover where the RoD would be much, much higher and that technique would certainly bend the aircraft very badly.
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Old 15th Dec 2013, 07:38
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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From my RFM;

1. Maintain Heading and Attitude control
2. Collective-Adjust
3. Cyclic - Adjust to obtain desired autorotative AIRSPEED (in capitals)
4. Attempt restart
5. Throttle closed
6. Fuel off
7. Flare to lose airspeed
8. Apply collective to cushion landing
9. Shutdown
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Old 15th Dec 2013, 07:39
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Lethality seems a strong word. An engine failure in the avoid curve means you are going to hit harder than the test pilot was prepared to accept. That may mean you get a sore back, may mean you damage the helicopter. Yes it may mean you die if you are well into it, but lethality is certainly not assured.
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