AW109S Hard Landing: Exmoor
....the bare minimum ought to be crossed vehicle headlights,
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Let's not get carried away here. You really don't need an angle of approach indicator or even necessarily ground lighting for a safe approach at night to a private site. It depends on a number of things. Has it been recce'd? Is the pilot familiar with it? Is it a big open level area or small site in a wooded valley? Is the visibility good? Etc. What you do need to do is take your time, identify it clearly, use the aircraft lights to verify any obstacles and make a steep approach so you know you're only letting down onto what you can see is clear. Much more comfortable in a twin than single, but even then, the chance of engine failure in the last 30 secs of approach is much less than hitting something through too hasty an approach. Oh and treat all surfaces as sloping ground - much harder to see what's level at night.
I don't know any detail of this but let's not generalise, please.
I don't know any detail of this but let's not generalise, please.
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Earlier this year she was tasked differently.
Avoid imitations
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I don't know any detail of this but let's not generalise, please.
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Shy - interesting. So if you do know the detail what was the weather like? And if you weren't generalising about use of a T or approach angle indicator for night landings, in what circumstances were you suggesting they should be used?
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ShyT - Yes and kind of. Not sure I'd be too happy making an approach to a site on Exmoor (if it's in the dark bit) with no lights at all with no NVG even if I'd been there by day. Launching into the inky blackness is a different story.
Not sure what the moon was etc but relying on the landing lamp to pick out obstacles is a gutsy call (which didn't appear to pay off for this maverick).
RSpeed - I'd use a T or some sort of lighting when I had an expensive helicopter, a dark site in the middle of nowhere and an unlucky pilot! T cost about £10 for some cylaumes or cans filled with petrol if you're feeling a bit WW2. Not sure how much half a 109S costs...
Not sure what the moon was etc but relying on the landing lamp to pick out obstacles is a gutsy call (which didn't appear to pay off for this maverick).
RSpeed - I'd use a T or some sort of lighting when I had an expensive helicopter, a dark site in the middle of nowhere and an unlucky pilot! T cost about £10 for some cylaumes or cans filled with petrol if you're feeling a bit WW2. Not sure how much half a 109S costs...
Avoid imitations
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I know a bit more of the circumstances of this one but I'm afraid you will have to wait for the AAIB report. 
Re lighting; read my post again. I was referring to the landing site requirements for military night ops when not using NVG. I flew under those rules for many years. I didn't say they were my present, personal requirements as a civilian helicopter pilot. Minimum lighting for night AOC helicopter ops is laid down in law. What a pilot does whilst on private, non AOC ops is up to himself - subject of course to ensuring the safe conduct of the flight.
Re lighting; read my post again. I was referring to the landing site requirements for military night ops when not using NVG. I flew under those rules for many years. I didn't say they were my present, personal requirements as a civilian helicopter pilot. Minimum lighting for night AOC helicopter ops is laid down in law. What a pilot does whilst on private, non AOC ops is up to himself - subject of course to ensuring the safe conduct of the flight.
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Shy,
Do you know if DR has sold this machine ? Seems odd log books were from Elite ? & if sold, (Castle Air ?), a bit harsh for ppruners to go down the ' what another DR forced landing' route....
Do you know if DR has sold this machine ? Seems odd log books were from Elite ? & if sold, (Castle Air ?), a bit harsh for ppruners to go down the ' what another DR forced landing' route....
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Somebody has jumped to the conclusion that there was no lighting at the landing site. This is incorrect; a ground party had set up landing lights and were in attendance.
The helicopter is operated by Elite Helicopters on their AOC when not being used by its owners. As was correctly reported by the paper, the aircraft was on a private flight.
The helicopter is operated by Elite Helicopters on their AOC when not being used by its owners. As was correctly reported by the paper, the aircraft was on a private flight.
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1hppl, I understand the aircraft might be for sale 
. I'm glad to hear the site was lit.
. I'm glad to hear the site was lit.
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Shy - have indeed read your post again, and sorry, but think you're trying to swerve on this one! You actually said what "ought to be" for "flights such as this one". I think you are mistaken - as, it seems, you were with your comment that there was no ground lighting.
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Rotorspeed,
You will notice that the quote you refer to was in reply to a question from someone with a military profile, asking about civilian rules. The phrase "ought to be" referred to military rules for minimum lighting standards, not civilian rules.
Again, to reiterate, under civilian rules, on a private (non AOC) flight, it's up to the pilot what lighting he is prepared to accept at any particular location.
You will notice that the quote you refer to was in reply to a question from someone with a military profile, asking about civilian rules. The phrase "ought to be" referred to military rules for minimum lighting standards, not civilian rules.
Again, to reiterate, under civilian rules, on a private (non AOC) flight, it's up to the pilot what lighting he is prepared to accept at any particular location.
Surprising difference in attitude...
Reflecting on the comments in this thread
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/522...013-a-115.html
to this where pilot error seems more readily acceptable...
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/522...013-a-115.html
to this where pilot error seems more readily acceptable...
So fly privately and there is little to learn from any accident, its just one of those things, pilot error and anyway who the **** do people think they are flying privately... they have it coming.
Otherwise its a culture thing, the fault of management, different equipment fit in the aircraft, pressure, automation... etc...
No cross over, nothing to learn? Really??
Edited to add:- this was also classed as a private flight....
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...PA%2011-08.pdf
Otherwise its a culture thing, the fault of management, different equipment fit in the aircraft, pressure, automation... etc...
No cross over, nothing to learn? Really??
Edited to add:- this was also classed as a private flight....
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...PA%2011-08.pdf
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Your query was specifically addressed towards the difference in attitude (with an interest in the culpability of the pilot) between this accident and the tragic events of 23rd August.
Is it necessary to spell-out the differences between the two? Really??
You seem to be overlooking one significant factor in your examples.
Is it necessary to spell-out the differences between the two? Really??
You seem to be overlooking one significant factor in your examples.
Hey GF - i'm not looking to have a huge fight I was just reflecting my surprise in the difference in the attitude/reaction/views (not wishing to get caught up in the minutiae of semantics) and hopefully we don't just find something to learn when people die in aircraft?
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You were querying the attitude of forum members towards this accident in contrast to the responses made in the wake of the Shetland crash.
Aside from the obvious, there is a chasm which separates people's attitudes towards the responsibility demanded by vendors of professional aviation services who cradle the lives of those who by reason of their profession are required to travel by helicopter and the actions of someone who is doing his own thing in his own aircraft with his own people.
Does this mean the latter should be any less responsible than the former? Never. But, you were talking about attitudes and I am explaining why there is a difference.
Aside from the obvious, there is a chasm which separates people's attitudes towards the responsibility demanded by vendors of professional aviation services who cradle the lives of those who by reason of their profession are required to travel by helicopter and the actions of someone who is doing his own thing in his own aircraft with his own people.
Does this mean the latter should be any less responsible than the former? Never. But, you were talking about attitudes and I am explaining why there is a difference.