Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
Re: Kgs switching to Lbs
The CAD and VEMD have huge memories, only a fraction of which can be retrieved by post flight screen button pressing in either maintenance or config mode. The rest of the memory can only be accessed 'on the bench'.
The fuel quantity could have been switched from Kgs to Lbs via the config mode or by an internal fault. Either would have been recorded in the memory.
If it was an internal fault, we would have known about it by now via a service bulletin or possibly an AD.
Seeing as config can't be accessed in flight, a human switching would have had to have taken place before flight.
The fuel quantity could have been switched from Kgs to Lbs via the config mode or by an internal fault. Either would have been recorded in the memory.
If it was an internal fault, we would have known about it by now via a service bulletin or possibly an AD.
Seeing as config can't be accessed in flight, a human switching would have had to have taken place before flight.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Intriguing, thanks Sky;
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...4%20G-SPAO.pdf
"The Central Panel Display System (CPDS) displays cautions and fuel status information to the pilot. It also records internal display system faults but no information relating to its indications. The displays did record flight duration and work is being carried out to link this duration, and the conditions required to start and stop this recorded duration, to the flight path of the helicopter. A fault relating to one of the display systems was recorded and further work is being undertaken to establish the meaning and possible causes of the fault."
It'll be interesting to find out what that fault was.
The fuel quantity could have been switched from Kgs to Lbs via the config mode or by an internal fault. Either would have been recorded in the memory.
If it was an internal fault, we would have known about it by now via a service bulletin or possibly an AD.
If it was an internal fault, we would have known about it by now via a service bulletin or possibly an AD.
"The Central Panel Display System (CPDS) displays cautions and fuel status information to the pilot. It also records internal display system faults but no information relating to its indications. The displays did record flight duration and work is being carried out to link this duration, and the conditions required to start and stop this recorded duration, to the flight path of the helicopter. A fault relating to one of the display systems was recorded and further work is being undertaken to establish the meaning and possible causes of the fault."
It'll be interesting to find out what that fault was.
Telegraph article
Extensive article in Telegraph today (online anyway, no idea about paper version) focusing on victims. The crash was just over a year ago.
'As the band played, the helicopter fell from the sky like a stone' - Telegraph
The Telegraph lets you read a number of articles without paying.
Almost no aviation discussion, human interest, I think they call it, only really.
'As the band played, the helicopter fell from the sky like a stone' - Telegraph
The Telegraph lets you read a number of articles without paying.
Almost no aviation discussion, human interest, I think they call it, only really.
No further news from AAIB
Several weeks are still required to complete the draft final report and it is expected that this draft will be circulated to ‘interested parties’, as defined by the Regulations, for comment early in 2015.
The final report is expected to be published in the middle of 2015.
The final report is expected to be published in the middle of 2015.
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2015 next update.
2015 is the latest update, thats a long time after the Glasgow crash.
It would help investigators if all commercial flights had some form of black box fitted.
There are new satellite data recorders which may be better than the normal boxes.
The Flight-Data Recorder?s Slow Evolution - The New Yorker
All police aircraft should have them fitted, and cost shouldn't be a reason not to fit them.
It would help investigators if all commercial flights had some form of black box fitted.
There are new satellite data recorders which may be better than the normal boxes.
The Flight-Data Recorder?s Slow Evolution - The New Yorker
All police aircraft should have them fitted, and cost shouldn't be a reason not to fit them.
It would help investigators if all commercial flights had some form of black box fitted.
There are new satellite data recorders which may be better than the normal boxes.
The Flight-Data Recorder?s Slow Evolution - The New Yorker
All police aircraft should have them fitted, and cost shouldn't be a reason not to fit them.
There are new satellite data recorders which may be better than the normal boxes.
The Flight-Data Recorder?s Slow Evolution - The New Yorker
All police aircraft should have them fitted, and cost shouldn't be a reason not to fit them.
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It would help if all aircraft had them.
Cost is an issue
So is weight
So is the design of retrofitting installation
The question is whether the penalties are worth the gain. As a general rule, the crash investigators do get to the root cause of accidents in light helicopters without the aid of flight data and cockpit voice recorders. Where is the body of evidence that shows the potential gain and weighs this against the negative sides?
Don't forget, when you say "all commercial flights" (Cabby) then you are including sight-seeing tours in an R22 or a G2.
My personal view - call for black box is a knee-jerk reaction; "we must be seen to do something". Had they been carried on this flight it would still have crashed, and I have difficulty to see that we might know more than we do now about why it crashed.
Cost is an issue
So is weight
So is the design of retrofitting installation
The question is whether the penalties are worth the gain. As a general rule, the crash investigators do get to the root cause of accidents in light helicopters without the aid of flight data and cockpit voice recorders. Where is the body of evidence that shows the potential gain and weighs this against the negative sides?
Don't forget, when you say "all commercial flights" (Cabby) then you are including sight-seeing tours in an R22 or a G2.
My personal view - call for black box is a knee-jerk reaction; "we must be seen to do something". Had they been carried on this flight it would still have crashed, and I have difficulty to see that we might know more than we do now about why it crashed.
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The AAIB update states that effort has been put into retrieving the data. Well that suggests they have it, and that it has allowed them to draw a number of conclusions which in the scheme of things they have to gain a level of stakeholder acceptance to.
So the black box - if it was fully and appropriately configured might have yielded the same information, in a more easily retrievable format.
The crash would have still occurred, the report would have been a little quicker - we are a year on and the AAIB are suggesting it will take 6 months of stakeholder engagement to get a final report. So the right black box might have reduced the time to a report from 18 months to 12 months.
Given the modest number of people exposed to the risk and the eye watering cost of retro-fitting this type of equipment it seems an very inappropriate use of the money.
Much more cost effective to sort the mechanical/electrical issues if there were any and then move the training / competency requirements to try and stop it recurring?
So the black box - if it was fully and appropriately configured might have yielded the same information, in a more easily retrievable format.
The crash would have still occurred, the report would have been a little quicker - we are a year on and the AAIB are suggesting it will take 6 months of stakeholder engagement to get a final report. So the right black box might have reduced the time to a report from 18 months to 12 months.
Given the modest number of people exposed to the risk and the eye watering cost of retro-fitting this type of equipment it seems an very inappropriate use of the money.
Much more cost effective to sort the mechanical/electrical issues if there were any and then move the training / competency requirements to try and stop it recurring?
"Just a pilot"
"All police aircraft should have them fitted, and cost shouldn't be a reason not to fit them. "
It's easy to spend somebody's money especially when it's nobody's money, in other words- taxes.
Organize a non-profit and solicit voluntary contributions to equip all copper choppers with black boxes, or just buy them yourself, if you want. I can think of a lot of other things that law enforcement needs before black boxes, stuff that would make a difference in the present and not a hypothetical future.
It's easy to spend somebody's money especially when it's nobody's money, in other words- taxes.
Organize a non-profit and solicit voluntary contributions to equip all copper choppers with black boxes, or just buy them yourself, if you want. I can think of a lot of other things that law enforcement needs before black boxes, stuff that would make a difference in the present and not a hypothetical future.
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FDR's
Re data recorders.
All valid points, but it has taken a long time to get to what is not the final report.
I suspect the AAIB have had their work cut out on this crash.
The new electronic versions mentioned in the news piece have simpler solid state equipment which is lighter and cheaper to operate Similar to the MH370 data bursts.
Maybe it should be something along the lines of HUMS.
My point is the length of time taken to reach what is not a final conclusion.
If a FDR had been fitted it should have allowed the a/c maker to look at the problem area if it was something apart from the fuel gauges.
Have the police been told what the problem was or are the makers surmising what they think happened............
All valid points, but it has taken a long time to get to what is not the final report.
I suspect the AAIB have had their work cut out on this crash.
The new electronic versions mentioned in the news piece have simpler solid state equipment which is lighter and cheaper to operate Similar to the MH370 data bursts.
Maybe it should be something along the lines of HUMS.
My point is the length of time taken to reach what is not a final conclusion.
If a FDR had been fitted it should have allowed the a/c maker to look at the problem area if it was something apart from the fuel gauges.
Have the police been told what the problem was or are the makers surmising what they think happened............
Last edited by Cabby; 28th Nov 2014 at 20:00. Reason: Time taken
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Cabby
Your tone of post I recognise from somewhere else, so I feel I must comment, I cannot quite put my finger on it yet but it will come to me where.
You appear hell bent on adding these bits of kit to police helicopters, which in the UK have an excellent safety record per number of movements. This passion you have given the current strains on finances and the need to work smarter and conserve budgets, will cost large amounts of money.
And to be perfectly honest, I cannot see it getting off the ground (excuse the pun) unless you got yourself elected into Parliament and push it through yourself.
Good luck
Ginger.
Your tone of post I recognise from somewhere else, so I feel I must comment, I cannot quite put my finger on it yet but it will come to me where.
You appear hell bent on adding these bits of kit to police helicopters, which in the UK have an excellent safety record per number of movements. This passion you have given the current strains on finances and the need to work smarter and conserve budgets, will cost large amounts of money.
And to be perfectly honest, I cannot see it getting off the ground (excuse the pun) unless you got yourself elected into Parliament and push it through yourself.
Good luck
Ginger.
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Devil & TPP - you both make most valid points, at the end of the day the public purse is paying for what?
Once the accident's happened, and it's been fairly comprehensively determined that the aircraft systems are not significantly at fault (and that any potential system faults have already, and fairly immediately, been addressed by extra operational &/or maintenance procedures, as they have in this case), does it really make any difference if the report appears 12 or 18 months after the event?
Fitting CVRs to all aircraft, including C150s etc, would be the icing on the cake, but I'd suggest compulsory mode C transponders would come far higher up the priority list, for every day benefit, from a safety point of view. Police aircraft in the UK have an excellent safety record, especially given the hours, weather conditions and endlessly flexible tasking flown.
Suggest CVRs if you like, but concentrate on what's done well and ensure best practice is shared. The current modus operandi does not require a knee-jerk, health & safety driven, sledgehammer - the nut doesn't need cracking, though it might benefit from a little polish!
Once the accident's happened, and it's been fairly comprehensively determined that the aircraft systems are not significantly at fault (and that any potential system faults have already, and fairly immediately, been addressed by extra operational &/or maintenance procedures, as they have in this case), does it really make any difference if the report appears 12 or 18 months after the event?
Fitting CVRs to all aircraft, including C150s etc, would be the icing on the cake, but I'd suggest compulsory mode C transponders would come far higher up the priority list, for every day benefit, from a safety point of view. Police aircraft in the UK have an excellent safety record, especially given the hours, weather conditions and endlessly flexible tasking flown.
Suggest CVRs if you like, but concentrate on what's done well and ensure best practice is shared. The current modus operandi does not require a knee-jerk, health & safety driven, sledgehammer - the nut doesn't need cracking, though it might benefit from a little polish!
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Poor reporting on BBC Radio 4 this morning (Saturday 29th November 2014 - I think on their news bulletin at 6am) where they stated that it was a year on today from the Glasgow Police helicopter crash the cause of which was that it "ran out of fuel".
No mention at all that the final AAIB report is not yet out and that the reasons why it crashed have still not been definitively determined.
EDIT:- This news report from yesterday morning on the BBC Scotland website at www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-30244060 seems to possibly partly explain the confused and inaccurate cut down version of the same on Radio 4 this morning.
Yet the Beeb's very own website news article of yesterday morning still quite clearly stated that "The AAIB said both engines failed but has yet to set out the cause"
FURTHER EDIT:-
Just heard the 7am Radio 4 news bulletin and it now says there are demands for all helicopters to be fitted with black boxes and that conclusions on why both engines stopped have not yet been reached by the AAIB. So it appears the Beeb must had some negative feedback on their earlier report and now adjusted it accordingly.
No mention at all that the final AAIB report is not yet out and that the reasons why it crashed have still not been definitively determined.
EDIT:- This news report from yesterday morning on the BBC Scotland website at www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-30244060 seems to possibly partly explain the confused and inaccurate cut down version of the same on Radio 4 this morning.
Yet the Beeb's very own website news article of yesterday morning still quite clearly stated that "The AAIB said both engines failed but has yet to set out the cause"
FURTHER EDIT:-
Just heard the 7am Radio 4 news bulletin and it now says there are demands for all helicopters to be fitted with black boxes and that conclusions on why both engines stopped have not yet been reached by the AAIB. So it appears the Beeb must had some negative feedback on their earlier report and now adjusted it accordingly.
Last edited by Capvermell; 29th Nov 2014 at 06:13.
What might be money better spent is a significant increase in the amount of funding / resourcing of the AAIB.
Whilst professional aviators might not give two hoots that it might take 18 months to conclude a report it does seem odd to everyone else, especially if the conclusion might very well ultimately be "it ran out of fuel".
Whilst professional aviators might not give two hoots that it might take 18 months to conclude a report it does seem odd to everyone else, especially if the conclusion might very well ultimately be "it ran out of fuel".
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Pittsextra;
What might be money better spent is a significant increase in the amount of funding / resourcing of the AAIB.
Whilst professional aviators might not give two hoots that it might take 18 months to conclude a report it does seem odd to everyone else, especially if the conclusion might very well ultimately be "it ran out of fuel".
What might be money better spent is a significant increase in the amount of funding / resourcing of the AAIB.
Whilst professional aviators might not give two hoots that it might take 18 months to conclude a report it does seem odd to everyone else, especially if the conclusion might very well ultimately be "it ran out of fuel".
If you would give respect to all those that died, their friends & family, all those that are affected by the incident and all those trying desperately to find out what happened that night, you'd possibly appreciate these investigations take time and not everything is about money.
Should you care enough to read the update from the AAIB, apart from mentioning the multi national manufacturers, authorities and representatives (a hint one of the many reasons as to why these investigations take so long) it says;
"As a result, significant work was required to extract and analyse the contents of non-volatile memory (NVM) from micro-chipped equipment known to record data. This, together with further examination of the aircraft and subsequent tests, has now been completed, to the extent that the investigation team may reach its conclusions."
Hopefully this data analysis may give an indication as to how the ac came to be configured as it was in the moments prior to the incident. Your simple uninformed and rushed conclusion of 'it simply ran out of fuel' is not only factually incorrect, it is also highly disrespectful to not only all those involved in the investigation, but to all that died that night.
The families need the answers and more importantly, the correct answers, no matter how long that may take. Shame on you Pittsextra.
SS - I'm not sure why that prompted a rant up.
I know it is easy to play the "think of those that died... show some respect" card but frankly I didn't rush to anything.
In fact it is you that has been "interested" by a host of theorem throughout this thread, and if I merely quote your last comment on this thread [your own bold]:-
"A fault relating to one of the display systems was recorded and further work is being undertaken to establish the meaning and possible causes of the fault."
It'll be interesting to find out what that fault was. "
Perhaps you might even agree that finding the reasons for any accident is better sooner than in 18 months??
I know it is easy to play the "think of those that died... show some respect" card but frankly I didn't rush to anything.
In fact it is you that has been "interested" by a host of theorem throughout this thread, and if I merely quote your last comment on this thread [your own bold]:-
"A fault relating to one of the display systems was recorded and further work is being undertaken to establish the meaning and possible causes of the fault."
It'll be interesting to find out what that fault was. "
Perhaps you might even agree that finding the reasons for any accident is better sooner than in 18 months??
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Sorry Pitts, but where is all this money going to come from to fund an increase in expert engineers & analysts who already do a difficult job, with impressive results? I don't like to criticise, but I'm afraid your statement
appears a little simplistic given the really very small number of accidents, the constant drive for improved safety, and the significant improvements in both manufactured & affordable add-on technology that allow pilots greater awareness, whilst at the same time often result in interrogate-able evidence by AAIB.
The EC135 remains a 3rd generation helicopter with a modern & comprehensive warning suite of imminent or potential failures. As someone who flies them, and who daily reviews reactions in the event of failures and, possibly more importantly, systems knowledge & understanding, I have full confidence that the belt & braces warning systems will provide me with enough information to greatly assist a keep-us-alive decision. The actions / interim reports need to satisfy the pilots; operators; customers; press; & public, pretty much in that order - IMHO they have done, until the proper report appears. I'm happy to wait.
This accident, due to its tragically unique landing point and stopped rotors has, not surprisingly, drawn considerable interest from more than just professional aviators. The resultant report, therefore, should surely concentrate on getting it as right as they possibly can, leaving no stone unturned (as has been intimated), rather than providing a sop to a generally non-understanding media and a minority of armchair experts.
On a separate note, and looking at your non-existent profile, I was intrigued by your prolific pprune posting rate of 0.64. It's not bettered by many of the most prolific on rotorheads (just sampling SS; TC; JTT & MG as examples), just SS at 0.87 who, with the ability to restrict rants &/or condense more than one item in a post, might fall below yours!
{Tongue in cheek, SS, in case you were planning a rant, we're on the same side. . .}
What might be money better spent is a significant increase in the amount of funding / resourcing of the AAIB.
The EC135 remains a 3rd generation helicopter with a modern & comprehensive warning suite of imminent or potential failures. As someone who flies them, and who daily reviews reactions in the event of failures and, possibly more importantly, systems knowledge & understanding, I have full confidence that the belt & braces warning systems will provide me with enough information to greatly assist a keep-us-alive decision. The actions / interim reports need to satisfy the pilots; operators; customers; press; & public, pretty much in that order - IMHO they have done, until the proper report appears. I'm happy to wait.
This accident, due to its tragically unique landing point and stopped rotors has, not surprisingly, drawn considerable interest from more than just professional aviators. The resultant report, therefore, should surely concentrate on getting it as right as they possibly can, leaving no stone unturned (as has been intimated), rather than providing a sop to a generally non-understanding media and a minority of armchair experts.
On a separate note, and looking at your non-existent profile, I was intrigued by your prolific pprune posting rate of 0.64. It's not bettered by many of the most prolific on rotorheads (just sampling SS; TC; JTT & MG as examples), just SS at 0.87 who, with the ability to restrict rants &/or condense more than one item in a post, might fall below yours!
{Tongue in cheek, SS, in case you were planning a rant, we're on the same side. . .}
It seems the AAIB have reached a conclusion w.r.t this unfortunate incident and they expect the results to be promulgated within weeks. I forecast end of January.
Look for: CVR's and also comments relating to synthetic training requirements. Further down the list of recommends perhaps we might even read about another 'pop' at IR pilots perhaps? (All speculation you understand -
)
Look for: CVR's and also comments relating to synthetic training requirements. Further down the list of recommends perhaps we might even read about another 'pop' at IR pilots perhaps? (All speculation you understand -
)
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So the layman may yet just say it simply ran out of fuel then?
