Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

[rotorspeed]

DAPT

And I guess you think the pilot here should have squawed 7700 too, do you? Hmm, brace yourself for replies! Just what sort of rotary flying experience do you actually have?

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

1. Aviate,
2. Navigate,
3. Communicate

At that height, at night, in that location and with (one surmises) the aircraft going tecghnical in a big way, there'll be little time for (1), limited options for (2) and no bandwidth at all for (3).

[500e]

Zorab
"If the engines had been shut down, Police radios will be un-powered anyway, with the possible exception of a hand-held radio, if fitted, in the cradle - although unlikely in the confusion that either Police occupant will have time, or presence of mind, to change the rotary selector (from where it's likely to have been for normal Ops) to be able to transmit."
This was a discussion point on ground vehicles (before mobile phones) with emergency services, do you loose comms, or wire radios before isolators, some county's did others didn't.
Would tend to agree with FFF not enough bandwith

[Fun Police]

i tend to agree with the mayday being superfluous in this instance. given where the accident took place, there would be thousands of "mayday's" called almost instantly. it is a built up area...
let's let the matter be, the crew had enough on their plate with likely very little time to deal with the situation.

[Tandemrotor]

DAPT

It might assist your argument if you were to tell us WHY a 'Mayday' call was important in this situation?

Otherwise forgive us for thinking it would have been a complete and utter waste of effort/capacity.

[chopjock]

Tand

It might assist your argument if you were to tell us WHY a 'Mayday' call was important in this situation?

I can add to this, A mayday call, if time allows (in this and other situations) can give useful information for the crash investigators.
eg. "fire on board", "tail rotor failure", "engine failure", "run out of fuel", "jammed controls" etc…

Particularly if the aircraft is subsequently destroyed in the crash.

[Tandemrotor]

chopjock

That is absolutely, and categorically NOT the purpose of a 'Mayday' call. Nor would I expect the AAIB to formulate ANY opinions whatsoever on cause due to the content of such a transmission!

Professional pilots appreciate that.

To suggest otherwise is 'a little' naive?

[SilsoeSid]

DAPT

I am surprised at the professional pilots that do not believe a Mayday call is important. It is the responsibility of the pilot flying. You might rethink your ability to respond to immediate action steps while transmitting a radio call.
http://www.v2helicopters.com.au/wp-c...D-LANDINGS.pdf

I am surprised at the other pilots here that do not believe that flying the aircraft is more important than a radio call.

Thanks for the link, it seems to back up what the professional pilots, as you put them, are saying;

THE FORCED LANDING:

ENTRY:
1. Lower collective.
2. Right Pedal.
3. Aft cyclic.

DESCENT:
1. Check:
- Rotor RPM
- Airspeed
- Balance
2. Select a suitable landing area considering the wind.
3. Set up type of auto to make landing area.
4. Mayday call.
5. Transponder 7700.
6. Passenger brief.
7. If time permits -consider the possibility of restart
-if restart not possible turn off : Fuel Cock
Master switch
Alternator.

Well blow my old sea boots, there it is that pesky Mayday call, right at the bottom ... below all that flying malarky.

Please explain why on Earth the Mayday Call and Transponder selection are a higher priority than 'Passenger brief'?

[SASless]

NOE....radio call?

Yeah Right!

It is so high on the priority list....this call telling Persons Unknown what is wrong with the aircraft.....and we must not ignore those Priorities.

I would stick to Priority number 1 through 10.....Fly the Aircraft!

[AtomKraft]

DAPT

In the movies you mean?

[chopjock]

I don't think anyone is suggesting get a Mayday call out at the expense of failing to aviate. However if time permits, then some information can be useful…. and the sooner the better means the message is more likely to be heard. I would certainly do it before briefing the pax.

[SilsoeSid]

DAPT

If you were the last aircraft in NOE flight the others would not even know you went down without a Mayday call.

Mmm, judging by that statement, you haven't done much tactical formation flying have you?

[zorab64]

500e - to clarify further to others who've already posted with technical details - the main TETRA head which controls all the Police radios is lost when both Gens go offline, in fact, thinking about it now, since TAC 4 also goes through the same head, I'm pretty sure it would also become unusable, even though the actual radio would still be powered by its own battery.

In addition, if the Pilot happens to be using ATC1 in a twin Garmin 430 fit, typical of UK Police-fit aircraft, that will also drop offline when both Gens are lost (as would happen when engines are chopped). In a fraught situation, he's unlikely to be able to do anything other than press the button & transmit - transmission goes out, or not, through whichever radio was last selected. With a double engine failure, it may or may not be ATC2.

Transponder - forget about it, fingers don't even go anywhere near them in day to day work, as it lives with the same code 24/7.

[Lemain]

Leaving aside whether a Distress call would have helped or should be prioritised higher or lower, if one pilot cannot manage the workload then, when carrying passengers or over urban areas at low level, there should be a minimum of two pilots. Yes, that would affect the entire costing and operability of much helicopter usage - the effect would be massive in some market sectors or even make helicopters non-viable, but safety of passengers and those on the ground should come first.

There are other benefits aside from sharing workload; two pilots working in the loop act as a restraint against over-confident, slipshod, or incompetent behaviour.

Please note, I'm not suggesting that any of that was a factor in this accident - we don't know yet - but it has been in others.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by SilsoeSid

Lonewolf, The discussion is EC135, am I right in thinking that as you refer to engine levers, your example isn't based on an EC135?

Yessir. The point being raised that I responded to is an issue common to twin engined helicopters, and some things that can go wrong with single engine failure as one tries to resolve it. You are correct that my point was not related to an EC-135 mishap. (It was also over 20 years ago)

[madflyer26]

DAPT,

Is it not fairly clear to you that this pilot and crew most likely had no spare capacity to get a distress call out? Unlike the very safe and controlled environment of a training flight, this event even to a highly experienced commander as Dave Traill would have been terrifying and his utmost thoughts and capacity would've been the saving of his aircraft and crew. The fact the Mayday was omitted really portrays a situation far beyond comprehension. The crew of the Super Puma that shucked its head in the North Sea managed "Mayday oh fxxk" very apt for that situation!!

MF26

[Thomas coupling]

Fortyodd says:

TC,
ATC 2 is direct off the battery so would be available. ATC 1 requires avionics on and either the shed bus switch or a generator online.
Airwave head is same as ATC 1.

I always thought a mayday was to tell someone you needed assistance and was a last resort to leave a record of where you went down to speed up any assistance needed. All this "leaving clues with ATC" is rather quite quaint, methinks . I would assume that David (a) had his hands full and (b) knew that ATC knew where he was. We still don't know if Stratchclyde Police Ops room received a message from the TFO's. Any radio hams out there - listening in?

Lemain: If we followed that advice then (a) there would be 10 dead now. Why not have two train drivers, two coach drivers?
Remember everything we do in life is all about risk.
Definition of risk: Frequency x Outcome. How often have police helo's flown over city centres x how often have they fallen out of the sky?
Now is most certainly not the time to make decisions like that.......and thankfully they won't.

[SASless]

Zorab,

If one retards the Throttles to "Idle"....do the Generators drop off line and thus cause a loss of the Mission Equipment?

Likewise...does the Garmin 430 require both Generators to operate or can a single Generator power that without any switch moving by the Pilot?

[Tandemrotor]

DAPT

A call stating TR failure,Engine out, Controls locked would provide a little more information as to the cause.

chopjock

I don't think anyone is suggesting get a Mayday call out at the expense of failing to aviate. However if time permits, then some information can be useful

Information? Useful?

Useful to whom? The Pprune pontificators perhaps.

If you are seriously suggesting the instantaneous assessment of the pilot (who may quite possibly not even KNOW why he is going down!) would be used as a 'guide' by the AAIB, I'm afraid you need to acqaint yourself with their work a little more.

In this particular case a 'Mayday' call by the pilot, even with a guess as to a possible cause, would probably have been worse than useless.

[Tandemrotor]

Lemain makes an excellent point. I asked this on 3 Dec:

Is it time Police flying became a twin pilot operation?????

As a result of this accident, and previous incidents, I will not be at all surprised if the continuation of police flying over urban areas now becomes the subject of a two pilot requirement.

For safety's sake, why wouldn't it?

Lack of payload/increased cost are no longer sufficient excuses.

I strongly believe it to be the way ahead, for many of the same reasons as Lemain.