Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
Sid,
WARNING - 100% conjecture.
Oops - my bad - normal here!
Engine Overspeed AEO at or about equivalent 30 sec power OEI. ~ .78 - 82 FLI depending………..
Needle split - not quite enough power to cause N2/Nr to go into overspeed function- N2 is what triggers Overspeed protection.
Looking at instrumentation - which one is really the duffer?
WARNING - 100% conjecture.
Oops - my bad - normal here!
Engine Overspeed AEO at or about equivalent 30 sec power OEI. ~ .78 - 82 FLI depending………..
Needle split - not quite enough power to cause N2/Nr to go into overspeed function- N2 is what triggers Overspeed protection.
Looking at instrumentation - which one is really the duffer?
SS just on the point of tail rotor failure drill, if you shut the engines down completely, as the airspeed reduces at the end of the manoeuvre, the drag from the transmission gears, oil pumps, hydraulic pumps and alternators (depending on type) will cause the fuselage to rotate once weather cocking effect is lost, resulting in a probable rollover.
Therefore it is advantageous to have a very small amount of torque on, to counteract these draggy losses. Depending on type, it might be that leaving one or both engines at idle provides this torque.
In the case of the 135 with which I am unfamiliar, but going on your comment about N2 at 60%, surely the heli should be on the ground by the time 60% Nr is achieved during an "engines idling" landing, thus any yaw will be minimal as a result of the ground contact, and anyway perhaps welcomed to counteract the drag yaw. The engines would remain at idle and so the max torque produced would be "not a lot".
Therefore I suggest that the RFM procedure would be fine in practice (not that I am volunteering to test it!).
Therefore it is advantageous to have a very small amount of torque on, to counteract these draggy losses. Depending on type, it might be that leaving one or both engines at idle provides this torque.
In the case of the 135 with which I am unfamiliar, but going on your comment about N2 at 60%, surely the heli should be on the ground by the time 60% Nr is achieved during an "engines idling" landing, thus any yaw will be minimal as a result of the ground contact, and anyway perhaps welcomed to counteract the drag yaw. The engines would remain at idle and so the max torque produced would be "not a lot".
Therefore I suggest that the RFM procedure would be fine in practice (not that I am volunteering to test it!).
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
RVDT, which N2 needle has taken the Nr up with it?
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in the likes of a murder investigation say, the police can hold the body aslong as they deem there is no further evidence to collect...
Does the AAIB have this power also? given that the first funeral was infact that of the pilot..... It doesn't rule out that it was or wasn't incapacitation of course, however suggests there's been an opinion gained by the AAIB in this respect?
Dan
Does the AAIB have this power also? given that the first funeral was infact that of the pilot..... It doesn't rule out that it was or wasn't incapacitation of course, however suggests there's been an opinion gained by the AAIB in this respect?
Dan
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dead right Jetranger.
Been there done that, heard that, numerous times, always with just a few seconds to get the message out because it was always just above the trees from whence it happened. Like- "going down",,, new radio girl, 'wa's that?' me "goin down f*8yer", a quick 'oh' was all I heard before the HF aerial broke.
Another day me and the the chief pilot on a double - he has a free-wheel failure just above the tress. Him, "goin down", I'm already turning toward him and as I respond 'aawwright', I see him just disappearing below the trees a couple of hundred meters away.
Him - he hasn't understood my response, not surprising the way we talk at times, "goin down F*** yer". Me, 'alright - already on the way.' As I streak over at full throttle right over on my side to get a clear view from thirty feet above. I see an impression that will stay me forever. His yellow helmet centre frame in the '47J bubble, hands locked on the controls, his steel grey eyes track me from left to right, his panatella is broken - one end still in his mouth the other swinging, shwick - shwick - shwick, back and forth with the aircraft rocking violently as the blades just then collect the tail boom. Me, 'you Ok?', Him with a less urgent and laconic reply says, "yeah but the helicopter ain't."
I continue working as it as mayhem just then.
It would be hard to assume that a gentleman of this persons previous low level experience would not get some sort of squawk out, but it is very possible. The radio freq he has selected, doesn't have a responder in attendance say, or it is being used by other traffic and he is not heard above it. However it is not a factor that will break the bank of China, but it may have helped as a timeline indicator had one been heard.
The deliberate tone of my post is to help lighten up, as Sasless says, take a break, have a beer, wait for the preliminary, which should only take thirty days or so.
cheers tet
Been there done that, heard that, numerous times, always with just a few seconds to get the message out because it was always just above the trees from whence it happened. Like- "going down",,, new radio girl, 'wa's that?' me "goin down f*8yer", a quick 'oh' was all I heard before the HF aerial broke.
Another day me and the the chief pilot on a double - he has a free-wheel failure just above the tress. Him, "goin down", I'm already turning toward him and as I respond 'aawwright', I see him just disappearing below the trees a couple of hundred meters away.
Him - he hasn't understood my response, not surprising the way we talk at times, "goin down F*** yer". Me, 'alright - already on the way.' As I streak over at full throttle right over on my side to get a clear view from thirty feet above. I see an impression that will stay me forever. His yellow helmet centre frame in the '47J bubble, hands locked on the controls, his steel grey eyes track me from left to right, his panatella is broken - one end still in his mouth the other swinging, shwick - shwick - shwick, back and forth with the aircraft rocking violently as the blades just then collect the tail boom. Me, 'you Ok?', Him with a less urgent and laconic reply says, "yeah but the helicopter ain't."
I continue working as it as mayhem just then.
It would be hard to assume that a gentleman of this persons previous low level experience would not get some sort of squawk out, but it is very possible. The radio freq he has selected, doesn't have a responder in attendance say, or it is being used by other traffic and he is not heard above it. However it is not a factor that will break the bank of China, but it may have helped as a timeline indicator had one been heard.
The deliberate tone of my post is to help lighten up, as Sasless says, take a break, have a beer, wait for the preliminary, which should only take thirty days or so.
cheers tet
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
HeliC, totally agree.
Perhaps it all just happened to line up just at the last minute.
My point about the 60% was to highlight (imho) that the engines must have been switched off completely, otherwise the blades/head would have been mangled. In addition, if that action hadn't have been carried out by the pilot (imho), we would have probably seen many more casualties.
Perhaps it all just happened to line up just at the last minute.
My point about the 60% was to highlight (imho) that the engines must have been switched off completely, otherwise the blades/head would have been mangled. In addition, if that action hadn't have been carried out by the pilot (imho), we would have probably seen many more casualties.
Like most here, I have been mulling this over and over. I have read most of this thread and don't think I have seen this exact scenario suggested.
1.The a/c returning to base suffered an incident that required an emergency landing in auto - just what we have yet to learn.
2. Pilot gets the a/c into auto and identifies what he thinks is an open space.
3. When the a/c gets to a few feet above the roof the pilot realises that it is a building and pulls hard to cushion the impact
4. The a/c lands very hard but not fatally (witness reports of initial crash) and the pilot shuts down the rotors and orders evacuation.
5. Just as the crew unbuckles and perhaps even start to get out, the roof finally gives way with the result we know about.
I would love to know the reported time between the initial crash and the roof coming in - it must be in the order of a least 5 to 10 seconds for the band to stop playing and comment on "bringing the house down" and then restart playing.
Just my 2p worth
1.The a/c returning to base suffered an incident that required an emergency landing in auto - just what we have yet to learn.
2. Pilot gets the a/c into auto and identifies what he thinks is an open space.
3. When the a/c gets to a few feet above the roof the pilot realises that it is a building and pulls hard to cushion the impact
4. The a/c lands very hard but not fatally (witness reports of initial crash) and the pilot shuts down the rotors and orders evacuation.
5. Just as the crew unbuckles and perhaps even start to get out, the roof finally gives way with the result we know about.
I would love to know the reported time between the initial crash and the roof coming in - it must be in the order of a least 5 to 10 seconds for the band to stop playing and comment on "bringing the house down" and then restart playing.
Just my 2p worth
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Like most here, I have been mulling this over and over. I have read most of this thread and don't think I have seen this exact scenario suggested.
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2 Dec 05:55
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So on the basis of the current replies, it would seem a Mayday call would have achieved precisely........ Nothing.
One might reasonably postulate that is exactly what the pilot may have thought too??
One might reasonably postulate that is exactly what the pilot may have thought too??
Just a numbered other
If the aircraft had been landed and shut down it would not have exhibited the degree of destruction evident from the wreckage.
It crashed vertically on to and through the roof with little or no NR, leaving an EC135 shaped hole with no evidence of forward speed. Why? None of us knows. The AAIB will hopefully work it out!
Edit: Agree Tandem. A May day would achieve nothing but distraction at a very busy time.
It crashed vertically on to and through the roof with little or no NR, leaving an EC135 shaped hole with no evidence of forward speed. Why? None of us knows. The AAIB will hopefully work it out!
Edit: Agree Tandem. A May day would achieve nothing but distraction at a very busy time.
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1990s, jayteeto plus puma and two colleagues plunging into jungle in Belize. Crewman shouts "MAY DAY MAY DAY MAY DAY VIPER 2 GOING IN!". Army signaller writes it all down as is his brief. After some head scratching, he can't figure it and asks his corporal what a mayday is?
Lesson learned, if a police control room is providing flightwatch, make sure they know the jargon. Did the cops get a call out? For future ops, it might be worth briefing the crew in advance to make a call if you are busy fighting the aircraft????
For the record, the emergency was caused by the tail rotor driveshaft and I was WAY too busy to think about the xxx radio........
Lesson learned, if a police control room is providing flightwatch, make sure they know the jargon. Did the cops get a call out? For future ops, it might be worth briefing the crew in advance to make a call if you are busy fighting the aircraft????
For the record, the emergency was caused by the tail rotor driveshaft and I was WAY too busy to think about the xxx radio........
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over and over: watch the destruction of the roof PLUS the destruction of the airframe. add it up. result: too many g's
some thoughts about distress calls. Thomson 757 was taking off on a busy airport, an early call to ask for priority and keep other traffic on hold and away from the scenario and following procedures seems sensible. Also, 2 qualified pilots on board to share workload, one can concentrate just to fly the a/c. Completely different situation with the airspace 500ft abv Glasgow City Center. Some other thoughts. I think there are some concerning aspects that the police is asking for more witness statements, inclusive possible private video footage, regarding the whereabouts of their helicopter before it crashed. Perhaps they already know a little bit more. They will tell when it's time to tell.
some thoughts about distress calls. Thomson 757 was taking off on a busy airport, an early call to ask for priority and keep other traffic on hold and away from the scenario and following procedures seems sensible. Also, 2 qualified pilots on board to share workload, one can concentrate just to fly the a/c. Completely different situation with the airspace 500ft abv Glasgow City Center. Some other thoughts. I think there are some concerning aspects that the police is asking for more witness statements, inclusive possible private video footage, regarding the whereabouts of their helicopter before it crashed. Perhaps they already know a little bit more. They will tell when it's time to tell.
Last edited by xlsky; 9th Dec 2013 at 05:30.
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It crashed vertically on to and through the roof with little or no NR
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I put a chopper into the ocean earlier this year and didn't get a call out - too busy flying and briefing the pax. Fortunately we all got wet and got out 
(Yay for HUET)
I've done some vertical autorotations (during flight checks only) that demand a massive pitch down attitude to get the speed back before flaring. Great for confined spaces, but not something I'd be keen to do at night in anger - especially if there was an unlit building in the way.
Fizzy
(Yay for HUET)I've done some vertical autorotations (during flight checks only) that demand a massive pitch down attitude to get the speed back before flaring. Great for confined spaces, but not something I'd be keen to do at night in anger - especially if there was an unlit building in the way.
Fizzy
Just a numbered other
Ag.
Just about the only fact so far released by the AAIB is that the aircraft descended vertically.
As for NR, the evidence is there in the photographs of the main ant tail rotor damage.
Just about the only fact so far released by the AAIB is that the aircraft descended vertically.
As for NR, the evidence is there in the photographs of the main ant tail rotor damage.
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Probably more like an equal forward and vertical speed
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thats more like it!
There are no plans to ground the West Midlands’ police helicopter in the wake of the horror crash in Glasgow at the weekend.
Nine people were killed when a police chopper smashed through the roof of the Clutha bar on Friday night, including two police officers and a civilian pilot in the helicopter.
West Midlands Police use the same model of helicopter, a Eurocopter 135, but the National Police Air Service (NPAS) has revealed they will continue to fly as usual – for now.
NPAS is led by West Yorkshire Police and a statement from the force’s crime commissioner Mark Burns-Williamson and Mark Gilmore, Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police, said: “NPAS has been following the tragic events in Glasgow and our thoughts and condolences are with those colleagues and members of the public who may have been killed or injured in this accident, as well as with their friends and families.
“NPAS does not operate police helicopters in Scotland but does operate some 14 similar Eurocopter 135s across our fleet.
“We have been in communication with Police Scotland and our suppliers within the aviation industry including the Civil Aviation Authority, and are continuing to operate our service as normal.
“Safety remains the key priority for us in continuing to fly police mission.”
Nine people were killed when a police chopper smashed through the roof of the Clutha bar on Friday night, including two police officers and a civilian pilot in the helicopter.
West Midlands Police use the same model of helicopter, a Eurocopter 135, but the National Police Air Service (NPAS) has revealed they will continue to fly as usual – for now.
NPAS is led by West Yorkshire Police and a statement from the force’s crime commissioner Mark Burns-Williamson and Mark Gilmore, Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police, said: “NPAS has been following the tragic events in Glasgow and our thoughts and condolences are with those colleagues and members of the public who may have been killed or injured in this accident, as well as with their friends and families.
“NPAS does not operate police helicopters in Scotland but does operate some 14 similar Eurocopter 135s across our fleet.
“We have been in communication with Police Scotland and our suppliers within the aviation industry including the Civil Aviation Authority, and are continuing to operate our service as normal.
“Safety remains the key priority for us in continuing to fly police mission.”
No reporting that any safety checks have been carried out, as suggested by the earlier Express and Star report.
"Police and ambulance helicopters in the West Midlands have been checked over by safety experts following the Glasgow tragedy that claimed nine lives.
Fleets have undergone rigorous safety checks, with the force’s Chief Constable Chris Sims saying: “Given we operate helicopters of a very similar design and style, there were concerted efforts from the National Police Air Service to check safety."
Express and Star
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Mayday calls & other bits
The constant questioning of whether the Police (front or back seat) managed to get out a distress call needs some clarification.
I'd suggest that the seriousness of the situation is appreciated by the pilot ONLY, who will likely exclaim "sh!t" at most, while he tries to control the aircraft. Depending on what's happening, and certainly if he's had the time to chop engines, and how (switches or throttles), the remaining seconds are unlikely to be enough for the Police to think about, let alone do anything of use.
Most will keep quiet, in order to let their one possible saviour (Pilot) resolve the problem, whilst being ready to help where they can/when asked. If this event was as desperate as it would seem to have been, there appears to have been less than a minute from start to finish - with little time for it to fully register on all occupants.
If the engines had been shut down, Police radios will be unpowered anyway, with the possible exception of a hand-held radio, if fitted, in the cradle - although unlikely in the confusion that either Police occupant will have time, or presence of mind, to change the rotary selector (from where it's likely to have been for normal Ops) to be able to transmit.
None of this is implying that the Police are not capable, just that however many times emergencies are discussed & practiced in theory, when the chips are down, it's likely an emergency call is the last thing on anyone's mind, and certainly not in an event like this.
P.S. Just like to add my support for rotorspeed #809, torque-devil #819 & others re inappropriate comments towards AAIB. There are unlikely to be many organisations worldwide as respected for the thoroughness of their investigations as they are, however long it takes.
I'd suggest that the seriousness of the situation is appreciated by the pilot ONLY, who will likely exclaim "sh!t" at most, while he tries to control the aircraft. Depending on what's happening, and certainly if he's had the time to chop engines, and how (switches or throttles), the remaining seconds are unlikely to be enough for the Police to think about, let alone do anything of use.
Most will keep quiet, in order to let their one possible saviour (Pilot) resolve the problem, whilst being ready to help where they can/when asked. If this event was as desperate as it would seem to have been, there appears to have been less than a minute from start to finish - with little time for it to fully register on all occupants.
If the engines had been shut down, Police radios will be unpowered anyway, with the possible exception of a hand-held radio, if fitted, in the cradle - although unlikely in the confusion that either Police occupant will have time, or presence of mind, to change the rotary selector (from where it's likely to have been for normal Ops) to be able to transmit.
None of this is implying that the Police are not capable, just that however many times emergencies are discussed & practiced in theory, when the chips are down, it's likely an emergency call is the last thing on anyone's mind, and certainly not in an event like this.
P.S. Just like to add my support for rotorspeed #809, torque-devil #819 & others re inappropriate comments towards AAIB. There are unlikely to be many organisations worldwide as respected for the thoroughness of their investigations as they are, however long it takes.
Last edited by zorab64; 9th Dec 2013 at 10:15. Reason: add post refs