Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub
The DT has named some of the victims, including two of the crew...
Glasgow helicopter crash: search for survivors amid the rubble continues - Telegraph
The article seems to suggest that here may still be survivors, and a larger death toll.
Police Scotland named Gary Arthur, a 48-year-old from the Paisley area, as one of the dead after his body was recovered. On Saturday it was also reported that a local policewoman, PC Kirsty Nelis, was another victim. The helicopter pilot, who was killed, was named as David Traill, a former RAF Flight Lieutenant who served in both Gulf Wars.
The article seems to suggest that here may still be survivors, and a larger death toll.
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Is there a penalty life factor PLF issued against these aircraft to take into account the sustained hovering they do at altitude out of ground affect? I've witnessed these aircraft form other forces hovering for sustained periods and have always thought this must be reducing the life of the MRGB.
Latest tripe from the media:
On the Radio 4 Broadcasting House programme this morning, Matthew Parris (normally a journalist I admire) said scornfully "some of the more right wing press are referring to the EC 135 as a "Eurocopter" - I suppose because it's of European manufacture ".
On the Radio 4 Broadcasting House programme this morning, Matthew Parris (normally a journalist I admire) said scornfully "some of the more right wing press are referring to the EC 135 as a "Eurocopter" - I suppose because it's of European manufacture ".
Zorab - close to home, eh. Stay safe buddy.
Whitehead - interesting point re Winsor.
My observations as one with 2500hrs as a police pilot on 135:
Either:
MGB catastrophic failure causing MRH and TRH to stop turning. (Unlikely - especially in light of the fact that Euro copter (Airbus) haven't issues a cease ops warning).
Double engine failure (possibly due to low fuel / contaminated fuel) and a delay in entering auto.
Catastrophic engine failure taking out the remaining engine (unlikely as debris hasn't yet been recovered away from the scene.
Vortex ring doesn't slow blades down.
[All of the above is based on pictures and eye witness accounts of intact MRH/TR blades and 'popping/banging noises from the helo].
The cabs are flying today - which means the operators have a rough idea what may have caused this.
Whitehead - interesting point re Winsor.
My observations as one with 2500hrs as a police pilot on 135:
Either:
MGB catastrophic failure causing MRH and TRH to stop turning. (Unlikely - especially in light of the fact that Euro copter (Airbus) haven't issues a cease ops warning).
Double engine failure (possibly due to low fuel / contaminated fuel) and a delay in entering auto.
Catastrophic engine failure taking out the remaining engine (unlikely as debris hasn't yet been recovered away from the scene.
Vortex ring doesn't slow blades down.
[All of the above is based on pictures and eye witness accounts of intact MRH/TR blades and 'popping/banging noises from the helo].
The cabs are flying today - which means the operators have a rough idea what may have caused this.
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Firstly can I say I can't fly anything including an RC toy so feel free to shoot my comments down in flames. Autorotation is only good if you have a power out and not much use in a tail rotor failure. I have seen the film of the channel 4 news helicopter crash in Brooklin that lost the tail rotor, and that only took about twenty seconds to crash and that was spinning wildly. I think if that is what happened here the Pilot was just along for the ride and saying he could have picked a better spot to land in nonsense.
500 Fan - there is most definitely a switch for intercom record and most of the time it is in the off position. (so that when the recording is played in court the jury don't have to listen to the crew slagging off the control room inspector).
S.Jones - your local force most definitely was not using a 350 - all police ops require twin engine. BTP/Network Rail operate a 355 in Police colours - was that what you saw??
Exactly what MGB issues is the 355 plagued with??, (or did you mean 225?).
Just want to fly - The head cracks are an ongoing issue. Since the first crack was found, four more have been detected - all by pilots on mandatory pre/post flight inspections. The first head was "flown" by the manufacturer under test and even after several hours, the blade was still securely attached by the remaining points. If this aircraft had shed a blade then the investigation team would be collecting wreckage from a much wider area.
Generally to others not in the know and especially the desparate media hounds - by the time the EC135 runs out of fuel, over the previous 30 minutes there would be 3 amber warning lights, 2 red warning lights with audio, 2 loudly complaining police air observers and number 2 engine will quit about 2 minutes before number 1 - that's the way the system is designed.
S.Jones - your local force most definitely was not using a 350 - all police ops require twin engine. BTP/Network Rail operate a 355 in Police colours - was that what you saw??
Exactly what MGB issues is the 355 plagued with??, (or did you mean 225?).
Just want to fly - The head cracks are an ongoing issue. Since the first crack was found, four more have been detected - all by pilots on mandatory pre/post flight inspections. The first head was "flown" by the manufacturer under test and even after several hours, the blade was still securely attached by the remaining points. If this aircraft had shed a blade then the investigation team would be collecting wreckage from a much wider area.
Generally to others not in the know and especially the desparate media hounds - by the time the EC135 runs out of fuel, over the previous 30 minutes there would be 3 amber warning lights, 2 red warning lights with audio, 2 loudly complaining police air observers and number 2 engine will quit about 2 minutes before number 1 - that's the way the system is designed.
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Fortyodd1, if the 135 had lost a blade it might well be hidden in the Clyde. You'd think the AAIB would have counted how many blades are in the pub by now. However, it would be consistent with some eye witness accounts, but there are so many different versions.....
No reports of the siren or skyshout havng been activated on the way down, so it's probably been really quick from problem to impact.
No reports of the siren or skyshout havng been activated on the way down, so it's probably been really quick from problem to impact.
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Winch control
I dont see why that TCs comment would be "very concerning". If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection.
Clearly it is very possible that there is information out there available to them but not yet in the public domain - eg ATC tapes, police radio recordings, maintenence info, etc which may already show a likely cause. Of course, quite rightly we will not get the full information until this has been fully scrutinised by the apppropriate agencies.
I dont see why that TCs comment would be "very concerning". If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection.
Clearly it is very possible that there is information out there available to them but not yet in the public domain - eg ATC tapes, police radio recordings, maintenence info, etc which may already show a likely cause. Of course, quite rightly we will not get the full information until this has been fully scrutinised by the apppropriate agencies.
Airpolice,
I wasn't suggesting for a second that it had shed a blade, simply responding to Just want to fly's question about the head cracks in a vain attempt to stop the journo's spouting cr@p.
I was one of the first on scene when a Lynx shed a main rotor blade near Mendig in 1994 and know just how big the wreckage field can be.
I wasn't suggesting for a second that it had shed a blade, simply responding to Just want to fly's question about the head cracks in a vain attempt to stop the journo's spouting cr@p.
I was one of the first on scene when a Lynx shed a main rotor blade near Mendig in 1994 and know just how big the wreckage field can be.
Avoid imitations
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I did initially wonder about MRB loss as a potential cause but if that occurred it's likely that the resulting out of balance forces would have ripped off the main gearbox. In the photos it appear to be still with the aircraft.
Pretty well can assume the Main Rotor was not turning with any speed or power as evidenced by the lack of damage to the leading edge on this blade.
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"I dont see why that TCs comment would be "very concerning". If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection."
You have I do believe answered your own question as to your thoughts!
You have I do believe answered your own question as to your thoughts!
Avoid imitations
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No reports of the siren or skyshout havng been activated on the way down, so it's probably been really quick from problem to impact.
We were once tasked to a major chemical factory explosion/leak and gas cloud (nitric acid vapour).
Once on scene we were ordered by the control room to use our newly fitted Skyshout equipment to tell people to shut their windows and stay indoors. Of course we quickly noticed that people below were coming outside to hear the strange noises. Then they just looked up at the helicopter.
So we quickly gave up with that idea and moved away.
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T.C.?
My observations as one with personal experience with hot air balloons, as well as experience reading comments from Thomas Coupling, I have to say that TC has a lot in common with a hot air balloon, and it's not the balloon.