UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4
JT2. I can honestly state that I have never had to resolve any sort of conflict at work in the last 5 years. I work in a constituted crew and we get on like a house on fire.
Q. There must be something that has needed resolution?
JT2. No.
Q. Are you telling me that you have had no problems in the last 5 years that you can discuss here?
JT2. Oooh!! I see, you want me to make one up?
Q. No, no we don't!
Q. There must be something that has needed resolution?
JT2. No.
Q. Are you telling me that you have had no problems in the last 5 years that you can discuss here?
JT2. Oooh!! I see, you want me to make one up?
Q. No, no we don't!
Just goes to show how interviews can be misleading for seeing if someone is suitable for a job. I mean, the Police have this Structured Interview system, and then give the bobbies courses on how to pass them.
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Just goes to show how interviews can be misleading for seeing if someone is suitable for a job. I mean, the Police have this Structured Interview system, and then give the bobbies courses on how to pass them.
Speaking to him a month or so ago, I got the sad impression the current service is not what it was
Sadly Cabby, I think you are going to be inundated with nay sayers. This is not because there is nothing good about NPAS, it is because this thread is only populated by those who have nothing good to say. Sick and tired of it really.
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Cabby,
Ok - it might seem like people are 'naysayers' of which I might seem to be one… but here's my perpective on NPAS.
It is a logical sensible idea. It isn't new … it was first described in a major report in 1992. What was envisaged was a national borderless mixed fleet run, and providing services, rather like Bond or Bristows. It was intended to delivery effectiveness and efficiency by having an appropriate number of aircraft and bases, but at the same time save money by economies of scale (fuel, equipment, central purchasing, training). All of the benefits that we know ought to accrue from such a set-up.
You might say that I'm stating the obvious or being patronising. But I just want to emphasise that NPAS hasn't been set up like that. To be fair, it hasn't has the chance. It has been implemented in response to economic pressure. It has been said by others (who have greater experience than me) that if NPAS had not been formed, there might be no police aviation at all (maybe some in London and the large metropolitan areas). Each police force would have been forced to axe its own very expensive standalone unit. My own local force is selling off police stations, axing jobs, and still has to meet further spending cuts of £Millions. It's the same story elsewhere. And in the NHS and MOD!
The things that hurt/anger those that are in it, or come into contact with it are, in my view , twofold.
Firstly, this incessant 'feel-good' message … that it's as good as, if not better than, what it has replaced … the lack of honesty … the 'Emperor's New Clothes' outlook. The real message should be, "Look, it's not as good as it was, or should be, … but the choice is, what we have … or nothing at all".
Perhaps I am being naive here. Maybe that such directness cannot work when dealing with political decision makers. I've had a Chief Constable say to me that if air support became too difficult, then they've managed without before, so they could do so again. And the 'Salami' principle may apply … keep cutting slices off and someone may decide that whats left isn't worth keeping. Perhaps that's why they keep their up-beat message going.
Secondly, its the feeling that those running it don't know what they're doing. It's unfair to level that charge across the board, but the police have a long tradition of 'having a go at a job' rather than listening to expertise. I know of more than one person, with great experience and knowledge, who has been excluded from involvement in various ventures leading unto NPAS because they weren't 'on-message' … that their qualified opinions did not accord with what people wanted to hear.
With regard to those management roles fulfilled by police officers .. as a new police officer, you are taught a set of rules, and sent out into the world to deal with whatever comes your way. You are expected to become a problem solver of the unexpected … and you do. You develop a 'gissa job - I can do that' outlook. You have to. You can't ever walk away from a situation because it is overwhelming or you don't know what to do. You just do something (your best) and hope that it works, which it does mostly.
I believe that this 'can do' approach can become detrimental if it percolates up the rank structure as it can. It means that people are given tasks that they have insufficient knowledge to deal with, and the culture is to just get on and do your best. I know of one former colleague who was put in charge of an important technical project and asked to make an immediate major decision. When he pointed out that he had only just arrived in post, he was told, "You're in charge now. Make the decision'. He made the right one … but that's hindsight.
And that is why people are dissatisfied and complain abut NPAS. I talk to others still involved in it … they never complain about working conditions, pay, hours. Its not being able to offer a standard of service that they want to give and being patronised by decision-makers who they consider to be less knowledgeable and capable as they claim to be.
So … NPAS? Great idea … the future … I hope that it survives to work! But only when it is can be resourced in the way that was originally intended. That means a proper mixed fleet of about twice as many airframes, spread across about half as many again bases as they have now. As it stands, it is saving money … but it can't do what it says on the tin!
What might it turn into. Again, an opinion of a friend of great experience. If it doesn't pick up, or becomes a victim itself of further austerity … it may well be snapped up by people like Bond, etc and become a fully outsourced facility. The wheel will have come full circle … as envisaged in 1992!
Just my two penn'orth. Does that offer you any insight or encouragement?
Ok - it might seem like people are 'naysayers' of which I might seem to be one… but here's my perpective on NPAS.
It is a logical sensible idea. It isn't new … it was first described in a major report in 1992. What was envisaged was a national borderless mixed fleet run, and providing services, rather like Bond or Bristows. It was intended to delivery effectiveness and efficiency by having an appropriate number of aircraft and bases, but at the same time save money by economies of scale (fuel, equipment, central purchasing, training). All of the benefits that we know ought to accrue from such a set-up.
You might say that I'm stating the obvious or being patronising. But I just want to emphasise that NPAS hasn't been set up like that. To be fair, it hasn't has the chance. It has been implemented in response to economic pressure. It has been said by others (who have greater experience than me) that if NPAS had not been formed, there might be no police aviation at all (maybe some in London and the large metropolitan areas). Each police force would have been forced to axe its own very expensive standalone unit. My own local force is selling off police stations, axing jobs, and still has to meet further spending cuts of £Millions. It's the same story elsewhere. And in the NHS and MOD!
The things that hurt/anger those that are in it, or come into contact with it are, in my view , twofold.
Firstly, this incessant 'feel-good' message … that it's as good as, if not better than, what it has replaced … the lack of honesty … the 'Emperor's New Clothes' outlook. The real message should be, "Look, it's not as good as it was, or should be, … but the choice is, what we have … or nothing at all".
Perhaps I am being naive here. Maybe that such directness cannot work when dealing with political decision makers. I've had a Chief Constable say to me that if air support became too difficult, then they've managed without before, so they could do so again. And the 'Salami' principle may apply … keep cutting slices off and someone may decide that whats left isn't worth keeping. Perhaps that's why they keep their up-beat message going.
Secondly, its the feeling that those running it don't know what they're doing. It's unfair to level that charge across the board, but the police have a long tradition of 'having a go at a job' rather than listening to expertise. I know of more than one person, with great experience and knowledge, who has been excluded from involvement in various ventures leading unto NPAS because they weren't 'on-message' … that their qualified opinions did not accord with what people wanted to hear.
With regard to those management roles fulfilled by police officers .. as a new police officer, you are taught a set of rules, and sent out into the world to deal with whatever comes your way. You are expected to become a problem solver of the unexpected … and you do. You develop a 'gissa job - I can do that' outlook. You have to. You can't ever walk away from a situation because it is overwhelming or you don't know what to do. You just do something (your best) and hope that it works, which it does mostly.
I believe that this 'can do' approach can become detrimental if it percolates up the rank structure as it can. It means that people are given tasks that they have insufficient knowledge to deal with, and the culture is to just get on and do your best. I know of one former colleague who was put in charge of an important technical project and asked to make an immediate major decision. When he pointed out that he had only just arrived in post, he was told, "You're in charge now. Make the decision'. He made the right one … but that's hindsight.
And that is why people are dissatisfied and complain abut NPAS. I talk to others still involved in it … they never complain about working conditions, pay, hours. Its not being able to offer a standard of service that they want to give and being patronised by decision-makers who they consider to be less knowledgeable and capable as they claim to be.
So … NPAS? Great idea … the future … I hope that it survives to work! But only when it is can be resourced in the way that was originally intended. That means a proper mixed fleet of about twice as many airframes, spread across about half as many again bases as they have now. As it stands, it is saving money … but it can't do what it says on the tin!
What might it turn into. Again, an opinion of a friend of great experience. If it doesn't pick up, or becomes a victim itself of further austerity … it may well be snapped up by people like Bond, etc and become a fully outsourced facility. The wheel will have come full circle … as envisaged in 1992!
Just my two penn'orth. Does that offer you any insight or encouragement?
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Gerry is correct. The complaints come from us when people say it is now an improved service. It isn't, it is cheaper........ sort of, but isn't anywhere near as good. Read back to comments from years ago, call a spade a spade and let's move on. Just stop lying.
Let's look at one simple fact - if one wants to be upbeat about it:
Without the formation of NPAS - the UK's police air support units would have been picked off, one by one by their respective C. C's so as to make ends meet. The whole process of selling off the family jewellery would have accelerated with the advent of PCC's trying to make a name for themselves.
NPAS has at the very least salvaged and secured approximately 90% of these air support units - atleast for the foreseeable future.
There is no disputing this - I would suggest. Basing future arguments on this premise - weakens many a negative perspective.
Without the formation of NPAS - the UK's police air support units would have been picked off, one by one by their respective C. C's so as to make ends meet. The whole process of selling off the family jewellery would have accelerated with the advent of PCC's trying to make a name for themselves.
NPAS has at the very least salvaged and secured approximately 90% of these air support units - atleast for the foreseeable future.
There is no disputing this - I would suggest. Basing future arguments on this premise - weakens many a negative perspective.
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This is not because there is nothing good about NPAS, it is because this thread is only populated by those who have nothing good to say.
The reality is, that nothing ( or at least very little ) good is being said,
simply because there is nothing ( or very little ) good to say
Here's an upbeat prediction to think about ....
In however many years it takes for this Country to get back on its feet,
and Budgetary constraints are no longer such a problem, there will be a
Chief Constable somewhere that will realise they could receive a far
more efficient and cost effective Air Support service if they purchased
their own aircraft and managed it themselves
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Without the formation of NPAS - the UK's police air support units would have been picked off, one by one by their respective C. C's so as to make ends meet.
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I honestly believe that NPAS can work if it can be resourced and structured as suggested in The 1992 report (with any suitable adjustments to account for the passage of time and changes in technology, etc). And I do have sympathy for their situation … stuck between the rock of promises and expectations, and the hard place of economic reality and austerity. It's the attitude that sticks in most people's throats. NHS are the same … less ambulances, hospitals, out-of-hours cover … all delivered with the patronising line that it is better, or more efficient.
I'm sure that there wouldn't be talk of further base closures, and cheaper aircraft, if they weren't being forced into further cost-cutting (ignoring that they seem to have got their sums wrong initially). I mean … I like fixed-wing … and unless you have worked one, you cannot be expected to know how it can do most of the tasks that rotary can do … just different techniques. But I also know that simply replacing a rotary with a f/w because it is cheaper and the base has a runway will not give the same standard of service unless certain other elements are in place.
Obviously … a runway! And ideally a choice, to avoid crosswind limitations. Unless you have control of, and priority use of, the airfield (or more importantly, that runway), you immediately face a response time problem. If you have to operate in Controlled Airspace … it can be quite viable … until you start running in to Class A. Icing conditions may not inhibit f/w … but low cloud and reduced viz obviously favour rotary. And no … I really wouldn't like to be conducting a search in narrow valleys in Wales and the Peaks in a f/w with low cloud full of cumulo granite.
Thomas Coupling has it … it's better than it could have been. It remains to be seen if it can preserve what has been saved to the point where it can be brought up to what it promises, and we expect.
Coconutty … funnily enough, that prospect (of forces going back to doing their own thing) has been suggested. Providing that they can get round the Section 22 requirement for forces to subscribe to a central source of air support … doesn't mean that they cannot pay a minimal amount (the letter of the law) but look elsewhere. And there's nothing that says that you can't use a single engine aircraft for police work … just that you cannot use it under certain conditions and avail yourself of the PAOM easements. Could use single engine rotary or f/w for some tasks. We had a former ACC who said that if photographic tasks became an excessive proportion of our work, he would consider just hiring in something like a Cessna 172 to do them. Didn't come to that, but the thinking was there … and that ACC was very supportive of air support.
Cabby … the Scottish situation … most of their 5 and a bit million population are in the southern areas. Guess that there are large parts of Scotland where they don't get 98% of the population with a 20 minute response … more like 20% with a 98 minute response!
I'm sure that there wouldn't be talk of further base closures, and cheaper aircraft, if they weren't being forced into further cost-cutting (ignoring that they seem to have got their sums wrong initially). I mean … I like fixed-wing … and unless you have worked one, you cannot be expected to know how it can do most of the tasks that rotary can do … just different techniques. But I also know that simply replacing a rotary with a f/w because it is cheaper and the base has a runway will not give the same standard of service unless certain other elements are in place.
Obviously … a runway! And ideally a choice, to avoid crosswind limitations. Unless you have control of, and priority use of, the airfield (or more importantly, that runway), you immediately face a response time problem. If you have to operate in Controlled Airspace … it can be quite viable … until you start running in to Class A. Icing conditions may not inhibit f/w … but low cloud and reduced viz obviously favour rotary. And no … I really wouldn't like to be conducting a search in narrow valleys in Wales and the Peaks in a f/w with low cloud full of cumulo granite.
Thomas Coupling has it … it's better than it could have been. It remains to be seen if it can preserve what has been saved to the point where it can be brought up to what it promises, and we expect.
Coconutty … funnily enough, that prospect (of forces going back to doing their own thing) has been suggested. Providing that they can get round the Section 22 requirement for forces to subscribe to a central source of air support … doesn't mean that they cannot pay a minimal amount (the letter of the law) but look elsewhere. And there's nothing that says that you can't use a single engine aircraft for police work … just that you cannot use it under certain conditions and avail yourself of the PAOM easements. Could use single engine rotary or f/w for some tasks. We had a former ACC who said that if photographic tasks became an excessive proportion of our work, he would consider just hiring in something like a Cessna 172 to do them. Didn't come to that, but the thinking was there … and that ACC was very supportive of air support.
Cabby … the Scottish situation … most of their 5 and a bit million population are in the southern areas. Guess that there are large parts of Scotland where they don't get 98% of the population with a 20 minute response … more like 20% with a 98 minute response!
There is a BBC News report that states that the Dyfed Powys helicopter is to stay.
It says the Dyfed-Powys Police helicopter will stay but then goes on to acknowledge that the AgustaWestland A109E currently operated is to go and be replaced by an EC135 the very type the region rejected a decade ago. What will former CC Ray White think of that!
What will stay is the base at Pembrey, Carmarthenshire.
In line with NPAS manning levels staff at Pembrey will be cut from nine to seven as the base is transferred. They were grossly undermanned before!
A separate report suggested that the Pembrey operation was to be 24-hour but the manning level suggests that may be a misunderstanding as the current staffing level which is to be reduced would not support that so it is simply adding the 24 hour NPAS cover [apointments may be necessary] that is not on offer at the moment.
Whichever way you look at this it appears to be a massive climb down by NPAS but I suspect there is a time rated clause in the paperwork that quietly expires at the next PCC elections!
Politics
It says the Dyfed-Powys Police helicopter will stay but then goes on to acknowledge that the AgustaWestland A109E currently operated is to go and be replaced by an EC135 the very type the region rejected a decade ago. What will former CC Ray White think of that!
What will stay is the base at Pembrey, Carmarthenshire.
In line with NPAS manning levels staff at Pembrey will be cut from nine to seven as the base is transferred. They were grossly undermanned before!
A separate report suggested that the Pembrey operation was to be 24-hour but the manning level suggests that may be a misunderstanding as the current staffing level which is to be reduced would not support that so it is simply adding the 24 hour NPAS cover [apointments may be necessary] that is not on offer at the moment.
Whichever way you look at this it appears to be a massive climb down by NPAS but I suspect there is a time rated clause in the paperwork that quietly expires at the next PCC elections!
Politics
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ADS Advance - Bond chooses Britannia 2000 CAMC for NPAS EC135 platforms
More news, but I like the fact that they've used a photograph of G-POLA (the only 135 in the fleet with those markings) edited to be over Wapping. I think it safe to say that she has never been there; so why, assuming the copyright permissions were sought, have PNAS allowed this pic to be published?
More news, but I like the fact that they've used a photograph of G-POLA (the only 135 in the fleet with those markings) edited to be over Wapping. I think it safe to say that she has never been there; so why, assuming the copyright permissions were sought, have PNAS allowed this pic to be published?
I suspect they are way too busy to even consider that amount of detail! Though in view of the receding date for the 'infusion' of the Met into NPAS it might yet become a 'banned' image in the future.
Noteworthy though that the checkerboard 'signature' of a certain individual survives in to NPAS days.
Noteworthy though that the checkerboard 'signature' of a certain individual survives in to NPAS days.
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The checkerboard detail is quite common.
By markings, I meant that POLA is the only 135 in the fleet with the 'EC135' & 'Euorocopter' stickers on the cowlings
However, for my fellow recognition nerds out there, despite the blurring effect on the 'London' pic to hide some features, you will also notice;
i. Pilots face/helmet position.
ii. Rear obs right hand position.
iii. The reflection in the fenestron is clear.
iv. Rotating landing lamp still had that u/s bulb.
v. WMids Air Ops badge on rear observers right arm.
vi. Front observers helmet shows white patch between dark visor nose space.
vii. The black velcro strip at the bottom of the flip out panel in front of the pilot can be seen.
viii. The only cleanish area on the base of the normally white aerial rear of the exhaust is present.
ix. Somewhere during the computer manipulation, the camera has been 'adjusted', the ae on the tailboom has disappeared and the ac has been tilted slightly.
http://bhxflightguide.********.co.uk...uary-2014.html
By markings, I meant that POLA is the only 135 in the fleet with the 'EC135' & 'Euorocopter' stickers on the cowlings
However, for my fellow recognition nerds out there, despite the blurring effect on the 'London' pic to hide some features, you will also notice;
i. Pilots face/helmet position.
ii. Rear obs right hand position.
iii. The reflection in the fenestron is clear.
iv. Rotating landing lamp still had that u/s bulb.
v. WMids Air Ops badge on rear observers right arm.
vi. Front observers helmet shows white patch between dark visor nose space.
vii. The black velcro strip at the bottom of the flip out panel in front of the pilot can be seen.
viii. The only cleanish area on the base of the normally white aerial rear of the exhaust is present.
ix. Somewhere during the computer manipulation, the camera has been 'adjusted', the ae on the tailboom has disappeared and the ac has been tilted slightly.
http://bhxflightguide.********.co.uk...uary-2014.html
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Re the NPAS helicopter airframes, do they fly much during daylight hours, or is it mostly night work which is covered.
Are there many tasks which need covering during daylight hours, say between "6am until 3pm" in areas outside the Met.
Why don't NPAS use a cheap plank for all UK police photo missions.
its got to be more economical than using a twin engined 135/902 if they need to save money on daytime photo ops and compiling better use of hours and crews. Is there a graph which shows when most hours are flown by NPAS aircraft or hasn't it been drawn yet?
Are there many tasks which need covering during daylight hours, say between "6am until 3pm" in areas outside the Met.
Why don't NPAS use a cheap plank for all UK police photo missions.
its got to be more economical than using a twin engined 135/902 if they need to save money on daytime photo ops and compiling better use of hours and crews. Is there a graph which shows when most hours are flown by NPAS aircraft or hasn't it been drawn yet?
Last edited by Harry O; 21st Nov 2014 at 12:43. Reason: NPAS graphs
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Harry, it won't surprise many to hear that different bases fly different profiles & hours, depending on the urban/rural nature of most of their tasking. Drawing graphs, with the plethora of statistics that currently exist, would probably look like a mass of randomly interlinked spiders . . . anyway, you should know what they say about statistics In any event, given the rate that different regions have been joining (or not), it wouldn't be easy to make any valid comparisons.
Encouraging the effective use of any airframe, units do not generally go out on specific photo tasks (unless a large number have built up after a run of bad weather or servicing) and will normally dovetail them in to other daylight operations, without significant detour, on the way back to base. If you used a "cheap plank" for those very few urgent photo tasks that have to be flown specifically, it would still be a plank, and not cheap
In any event, given the rate that different regions have been joining (or not), it wouldn't be easy to make any valid comparisons.Encouraging the effective use of any airframe, units do not generally go out on specific photo tasks (unless a large number have built up after a run of bad weather or servicing) and will normally dovetail them in to other daylight operations, without significant detour, on the way back to base. If you used a "cheap plank" for those very few urgent photo tasks that have to be flown specifically, it would still be a plank, and not cheap