UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 4
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Not being a part of the show myself these days, apparently the NPAS training is now at a higher level than the previous training standards 
Does that mean then, that all the present TFO's have been retrained to these higher standards? How will we know if a present TFO would pass an NPAS TFO course? Let's say one was off for a few months, sick maybe or comp, would they have a refresher followed by a line check, or be made to do the new course?
Just wonderin', 'cause I'd hate to think there wasn't a level playing field round these parts
Never quite liked the ice skating way of measuring ability
Does that mean then, that all the present TFO's have been retrained to these higher standards? How will we know if a present TFO would pass an NPAS TFO course? Let's say one was off for a few months, sick maybe or comp, would they have a refresher followed by a line check, or be made to do the new course?
Just wonderin', 'cause I'd hate to think there wasn't a level playing field round these parts
Never quite liked the ice skating way of measuring ability
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: here
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TFO course..
Out of interest... what course do the NPAS Police Officers go through?
A friend of mine is an Observer at the Met and his selection and training was NAILS !
6 month selection, multiple interviews, map reading, first aid and swimming tests, teamwork days, Police tests, flight test and even had to go to RAF Cranwell and pass that !.... And that was just selection. Then it was a 3 month 5 day a week course before being let loose on the front seat camera ONLY. Minimum 3 months in the front seat before doing a month course to sit in the back.
Fair Play ....
How are the guys selected and trained now ?
FCL
A friend of mine is an Observer at the Met and his selection and training was NAILS !
6 month selection, multiple interviews, map reading, first aid and swimming tests, teamwork days, Police tests, flight test and even had to go to RAF Cranwell and pass that !.... And that was just selection. Then it was a 3 month 5 day a week course before being let loose on the front seat camera ONLY. Minimum 3 months in the front seat before doing a month course to sit in the back.
Fair Play ....
How are the guys selected and trained now ?
FCL
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: On the fence
Age: 62
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm amazed that any public body can afford to maintain a TFO selection & training process that can only be described as '70s or '80s military style (& cost), from the description above.
I understand most Forces had already put together more cost effective, but certainly shorter & realistic, selection & training processes pre-NPAS . . . although, reading between the lines, current selection may be accepting a lower pass-mark, & I get vibes that training is minimal, possibly unrealistic, not uniform and even maybe more expensive, certainly when local procedures (to make up for the minimalist course) are taken into account
Don't you just love organisations set up to save tax-payers's money?
Emoticons still not working or the head would be banging the wall. . .
I understand most Forces had already put together more cost effective, but certainly shorter & realistic, selection & training processes pre-NPAS . . . although, reading between the lines, current selection may be accepting a lower pass-mark, & I get vibes that training is minimal, possibly unrealistic, not uniform and even maybe more expensive, certainly when local procedures (to make up for the minimalist course) are taken into account
Don't you just love organisations set up to save tax-payers's money?
Emoticons still not working or the head would be banging the wall. . .
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Wasn't there a very good training base that ran the initial course for most of the countries air units before, (and you've already guessed it), it was closed down with the onset of NPAS? Further training was then completed at the respective units.
Are we going to have a discussion similar to this one?
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...-observer.html
How long before the 'passenger' status is mentioned?
Are we going to have a discussion similar to this one?
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...-observer.html
Genuine jobs here, but be warned if you are interested, there is a catch. Because they will make you a PCSO, when the aircraft is off-line for servicing or weather, you will be walking the streets.
A friend of mine is an Observer at the Met and his selection and training was NAILS !
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
Police helicopter deal a terrible waste of money - News - East Anglian Daily Times
Still, it'll be all sorted once everyone comes on board won't it!
Suffolk: Police helicopter deal a terrible waste of money
The value of retaining a police helicopter for Suffolk has been brought into question after it was revealed that the constabulary is paying double the rate it actual uses the service.
In the last year, Suffolk Constabulary paid £800,000 for air support to the National Police Air Service (NPAS), but the force helicopter flew half its allocated flying hours.
Suffolks police crime commissioner, Tim Passmore, called the current arrangement a terrible waste of money and insisted the constabulary push for a change in the way costs are contributed to the national service, which has provided centralised air support since 2012, before which forces operated their own helicopters.
At a meeting of Suffolks accountability and performance panel, at police HQ in Martlesham Heath this week, assistant chief officer Phillip Clayton said the past year had been largely positive for the budget, with more savings delivered than required.
But Mr Clayton admitted that any areas of concern would need to be addressed in order to continue in the same vein.
Mr Clayton called the current sir support contract inequitable and said he would strongly support pushing for a change in the way costs are contributed towards managing the service provided by the NPAS.
Its in everyones interest to pay for something on an equitable basis if its done nationally, he said.
The NPAS was brought in with the aim of cutting £15m from police budgets.
All forces were asked to contribute towards the costs of managing the service, with flight hours allocated to each force based on historic use of their helicopter with their provider at the time.
Suffolk was consequently allocated 600 hours - an amount that, over the last two years, has proved to be more than required.
Mr Passmore said: It is essential to have air support for certain operations, but it comes at a cost that we are not in a position to afford.
Im not prepared to use Suffolk taxpayers money like that - full stop.
Its a terrible waste of money and Im not prepared to put up with it.
Norfolk and Suffolk paid a combined total of £1.16m between April 2013 and April 2014.
Suffolk contributed £800,000 and was budgeted for 600 hours of air support compared to Norfolks 220 hours, despite being the smaller force.
By March this year, Suffolk had used just over half its allocation but had been able transfer a portion of its hours to Norfolk, retrieving £39,000 and taking down its annual contribution to £761,000 compared to Norfolks £399,000.
The value of retaining a police helicopter for Suffolk has been brought into question after it was revealed that the constabulary is paying double the rate it actual uses the service.
In the last year, Suffolk Constabulary paid £800,000 for air support to the National Police Air Service (NPAS), but the force helicopter flew half its allocated flying hours.
Suffolks police crime commissioner, Tim Passmore, called the current arrangement a terrible waste of money and insisted the constabulary push for a change in the way costs are contributed to the national service, which has provided centralised air support since 2012, before which forces operated their own helicopters.
At a meeting of Suffolks accountability and performance panel, at police HQ in Martlesham Heath this week, assistant chief officer Phillip Clayton said the past year had been largely positive for the budget, with more savings delivered than required.
But Mr Clayton admitted that any areas of concern would need to be addressed in order to continue in the same vein.
Mr Clayton called the current sir support contract inequitable and said he would strongly support pushing for a change in the way costs are contributed towards managing the service provided by the NPAS.
Its in everyones interest to pay for something on an equitable basis if its done nationally, he said.
The NPAS was brought in with the aim of cutting £15m from police budgets.
All forces were asked to contribute towards the costs of managing the service, with flight hours allocated to each force based on historic use of their helicopter with their provider at the time.
Suffolk was consequently allocated 600 hours - an amount that, over the last two years, has proved to be more than required.
Mr Passmore said: It is essential to have air support for certain operations, but it comes at a cost that we are not in a position to afford.
Im not prepared to use Suffolk taxpayers money like that - full stop.
Its a terrible waste of money and Im not prepared to put up with it.
Norfolk and Suffolk paid a combined total of £1.16m between April 2013 and April 2014.
Suffolk contributed £800,000 and was budgeted for 600 hours of air support compared to Norfolks 220 hours, despite being the smaller force.
By March this year, Suffolk had used just over half its allocation but had been able transfer a portion of its hours to Norfolk, retrieving £39,000 and taking down its annual contribution to £761,000 compared to Norfolks £399,000.
Still, it'll be all sorted once everyone comes on board won't it!
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But that's the Met for you
Last edited by Fuzz Burner; 27th Jun 2014 at 11:20.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
My, how quickly things change.
Hangar not big enough to take a 145, standby for the next stage of cutbacks.
Hangar not big enough to take a 145, standby for the next stage of cutbacks.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
perhaps mister Passmore could spare half an hour to speak to the crews of the 'Suffolk' helicopter and the ops room staff to gain a perspective of why an aircraft that regularly flew 800 hours a year for 'his' force is doing half that. Could it be it's normally deployed in one of the 5 counties that surround Suffolk and further afield when it's required in Suffolk, so the calls have just stopped coming in.....same in Cambs etc....etc....
Guess there's no ideal model when money's tight. The old system was great for response when the aircraft was sat at base waiting, now it's 50 miles away and running out of fuel when the call comes in it's a different type of response.
Guess there's no ideal model when money's tight. The old system was great for response when the aircraft was sat at base waiting, now it's 50 miles away and running out of fuel when the call comes in it's a different type of response.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
It's no surprise (once the bean counters' smoke and mirrors are removed) that if assets are moved further away and spread more thinly, the effective utilisation can only decrease.
Police Aviation works on a reactive, call-out basis so speed of response is of the essence. If the reaction time is unacceptable, the job is often lost.
Which is what everyone who knew the job and had a modicum of common sense was saying before this nonsensical NPAS charade began.
As I wrote years ago, people made a career by introducing Police Aviation as a way of saving police and tax-payers' money. With NPAS, others have made their careers by phasing it out.
As an ex-police chief pilot, I think what has happened to a system that worked extremely well, and provided very good value for money, is very sad.
Police Aviation works on a reactive, call-out basis so speed of response is of the essence. If the reaction time is unacceptable, the job is often lost.
Which is what everyone who knew the job and had a modicum of common sense was saying before this nonsensical NPAS charade began.
As I wrote years ago, people made a career by introducing Police Aviation as a way of saving police and tax-payers' money. With NPAS, others have made their careers by phasing it out.
As an ex-police chief pilot, I think what has happened to a system that worked extremely well, and provided very good value for money, is very sad.
Shy - How right you are but, as Art said, there's no ideal model when money's tight.
Art, you're probably right about the aircraft being deployed elsewhere or, perhaps, there isn't an aircraft based locally at all at the times and places it's needed.
Art, you're probably right about the aircraft being deployed elsewhere or, perhaps, there isn't an aircraft based locally at all at the times and places it's needed.
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Devon
Age: 69
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cover, but only if your near t'hills.
It would appear that the West Yorkshire force is surrounded by NPAS bases, where as places like Scotland have only one airframe to cover the whole of Scotland? A bit like the Wales setup I believe. Stand corrected if I'm wrong.
Now I wonder why that is?
Is it because West Yorkshire are supposed to be in control of this train set or they need air cover more than others?
Why do the Met need 145's compared to other units?
Now I wonder why that is?
Is it because West Yorkshire are supposed to be in control of this train set or they need air cover more than others?
Why do the Met need 145's compared to other units?
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
J.A.F.O.
But money is being wasted somewhere, the NPAS system is soon proving to be less effective, albeit for the same money being taken from some individual Police forces. At least this appears to be so, according to the Suffolk report above.
So if Suffolk are getting fewer hours flown, is any other force gaining those hours, or are they just "lost" in the system because it cannot provide them?
If the latter is true, this is proving to be one almighty Police Farce.
Shy - How right you are but, as Art said, there's no ideal model when money's tight.
So if Suffolk are getting fewer hours flown, is any other force gaining those hours, or are they just "lost" in the system because it cannot provide them?
If the latter is true, this is proving to be one almighty Police Farce.
Shy, I don't know the numbers (does anyone?) but I can't disagree with you and from the odd reports that you see in the press, such as the Suffolk one you mentioned, it does seem as though there are forces who are paying 3/4 of the money for 1/2 the service.
As I say, that's only what I've picked up from the press, I am not involved with NPAS and don't know any of the details. It would be very interesting to find out, though.
As you said in your earlier post, it does look a little as though all of the nay-sayers and doom-mongers may just have known what they were talking about after all.
As I say, that's only what I've picked up from the press, I am not involved with NPAS and don't know any of the details. It would be very interesting to find out, though.
As you said in your earlier post, it does look a little as though all of the nay-sayers and doom-mongers may just have known what they were talking about after all.
I've got some numbers coming in with regards to costs before and after joining NPAS. I'll post them when they're complete.
But so far...Derbyshire should be fairly happy, paying £531,500 for 400hrs for this FY rather than £822,600 for 375hrs but Devon and Cornwall are now paying £1,673,000 for 850hrs rather than £1,379,610 for a 1000.
But so far...Derbyshire should be fairly happy, paying £531,500 for 400hrs for this FY rather than £822,600 for 375hrs but Devon and Cornwall are now paying £1,673,000 for 850hrs rather than £1,379,610 for a 1000.
J.A.F.O, spot on! (Yes I'm still here, getting a bit wrinkly now). This is exactly the scenario we predicted a few years ago when NPAS was set up, deliberately ignoring all of the experience we were able to offer.
Then most forces were putting in around 1,000 hrs per year, way over the totals today. But then we were effective. Taking prisoners and having an effect on crime. Cover was rapid and a Police officer in trouble on the ground could expect support in quick time. Evidential photographs were taken on return flights to assist court cases. Today none of that can be relied upon so the number of requests has plummeted.
This is a classic case of the Accountants knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing!
And to those of you who promote the minimalist training given today I say this, - When the tool that you use, the helicopter is valued at...... Do you really want to risk not getting the best out of it by failing to train your crews properly?
Tigerfish, - Still out there, and still listening to what is going on. Deeply saddened by some attitudes, but that is what was always going to happen when NPAS was given the go ahead in the way that it was!
Then most forces were putting in around 1,000 hrs per year, way over the totals today. But then we were effective. Taking prisoners and having an effect on crime. Cover was rapid and a Police officer in trouble on the ground could expect support in quick time. Evidential photographs were taken on return flights to assist court cases. Today none of that can be relied upon so the number of requests has plummeted.
This is a classic case of the Accountants knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing!
And to those of you who promote the minimalist training given today I say this, - When the tool that you use, the helicopter is valued at...... Do you really want to risk not getting the best out of it by failing to train your crews properly?
Tigerfish, - Still out there, and still listening to what is going on. Deeply saddened by some attitudes, but that is what was always going to happen when NPAS was given the go ahead in the way that it was!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thread Starter
At the moment forces are asked how many hours they would like. How long do we really think that will that last?
Immediate savings of £15 mill can be made by cutting 7,500 flying hours over the fleet. You know what's coming next, cut the yearly flying rate by an average of 300hrs per airframe and there you have it! However, cut 3 units and you can have NPAS's £15 mill savings per year sorted in perpetuity with one fell swoop. Bean counters happy, remit has been fulfilled.
Expect a few shocks soon
Immediate savings of £15 mill can be made by cutting 7,500 flying hours over the fleet. You know what's coming next, cut the yearly flying rate by an average of 300hrs per airframe and there you have it! However, cut 3 units and you can have NPAS's £15 mill savings per year sorted in perpetuity with one fell swoop. Bean counters happy, remit has been fulfilled.
Expect a few shocks soon
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Devon
Age: 69
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NPAS news
NPAS news in this months PAN edition.
The Flight safety section has a quote from NPAS's Oliver Dinsmore regarding the very close air miss involving an NPAS 135 over Liverpool.
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Ac...ANJuly2014.pdf
The Flight safety section has a quote from NPAS's Oliver Dinsmore regarding the very close air miss involving an NPAS 135 over Liverpool.
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Ac...ANJuly2014.pdf
Last edited by Cabby; 12th Jul 2014 at 14:24.