Was this winch necessary?
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gents--totally out of my lane, but interesting thread and curiosity is killing this cat. So, here's my dumb question: if you can get them into a strop, or two strops, or a bosun's chair, or a screamer bag, why not get them into a full rescue harness (chest and seat) and be done with it? Assuming time is not of the essence, of course.
Last edited by aa777888; 21st Oct 2013 at 11:07.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: South Coast
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although I have now been retired since last year I have been involved in SAR incidents in UK SAR since the early 70’s and consider myself lucky to have been able to continue until my retirement. As Crab and Cabe LeCutter have mentioned we don’t know all the facts about the incident in question, we were not there and many factors would have gone into making the decision to lift the casualty and in a dense wooded area it would have been a difficult decision.
I am keeping this to my views regarding winching techniques, which cover points already mentioned and a few that haven’t rather long winded I’m afraid, but needs to be, to even attempt to explain the situations and decisions the winchman has to make.
For a broken ankle and winching from a clear safe area, I would have stabilised the injury and placed the casualty in a stretcher prior to winching. If on the side of a cliff, or a limited clearing, on a small vessel or on a vessel in extremely rough weather, this may not be possible because of room and possible snagging hazards during the winching phase. The second option, as mentioned, is the double strop method more comfortable for the casualty. Occasionally there will be too many snagging hazards or not enough time to use even the double strop method and a single strop will have to be used. (The strops and harnesses have been explained in earlier posts on this thread)
On the majority of occasion the winchman will be winched with the casualty and will be continuously assessing the security of that casualty.
The double strop method was originally developed for removal from cold water to prevent post rescue collapse from extreme cold conditions and the loss of hydrostatic squeeze as the casualty leaves the water. Lifting the casualty horizontally will assist the body to keep the blood flow to the central core. When doing the trials for the best way to achieve this in the 70’s, a few contraptions were tried, but being weighty proved dangerous to the casualty and the winchman/diver when trying to place them on the casualty, especially in heavy seas. The double strop proved the best way, relatively easy to place and keeping the casualty in the perfect position for what we were trying to achieve. It later made sense to use this method whenever possible for the additional security and comfort of casualties. I have to stress in very heavy seas it is not always possible to achieve placing both the strops but the priority is to try to achieve this.
I have also used a harness, i.e. the four point harness (the harness the winchman wears) on casualties in situations similar to mentioned earlier, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulder and no room for a stretcher etc. On one occasion the casualty had an amputated arm and no room for a stretcher. The harness can be quite difficult to place on a casualty and again the situation may dictate it not possible, but we have to adapt to the situations we are presented with.
The single strop whether being used as a pair or on their own, in my view, in UK SAR will always be the main rescue tool because of the speed it can be applied in rough or cold seas or many other situations we can face when speed is of the essence. There are occasions when badly injured casualties have to be moved even before stabilisation because they are in life threating situations, slipping further down a cliff, tide coming in or slipping below the surface etc.
When winching personnel from a vessel that is at risk of sinking or on fire it may be necessary to send two casualties up at a time using two strops, one on each casualty, in these situations the winchman would make sure the beckets are secure and they are briefed on the importance of keeping their arms to the side.
When being winched with a casualty in a single lift strop I always had a physical grip with legs wrapped round the body and one hand holding the point the becket is positioned. This was as additional security to stop any chance of it sliding down.
Another important factor is it does require a strong physical grip, using legs and hands when a casualty goes unconscious while being winched in a single lift strop. The muscle tone will disappear from the casualty and the weight of the body will try to force the arms up so it’s important to watch out for the possibility of that happening. It has happened to me on a few occasions.
There are many situations when a high hover has to be achieved and winching from height is more difficult, especially for the winch-op whose visual references change considerably and the pilot having to look further into the distance for his hover references. But these situations are balanced between all the crew as to the safest way to achieve a rescue.
Continuous training for all the crews is essential.
I am keeping this to my views regarding winching techniques, which cover points already mentioned and a few that haven’t rather long winded I’m afraid, but needs to be, to even attempt to explain the situations and decisions the winchman has to make.
For a broken ankle and winching from a clear safe area, I would have stabilised the injury and placed the casualty in a stretcher prior to winching. If on the side of a cliff, or a limited clearing, on a small vessel or on a vessel in extremely rough weather, this may not be possible because of room and possible snagging hazards during the winching phase. The second option, as mentioned, is the double strop method more comfortable for the casualty. Occasionally there will be too many snagging hazards or not enough time to use even the double strop method and a single strop will have to be used. (The strops and harnesses have been explained in earlier posts on this thread)
On the majority of occasion the winchman will be winched with the casualty and will be continuously assessing the security of that casualty.
The double strop method was originally developed for removal from cold water to prevent post rescue collapse from extreme cold conditions and the loss of hydrostatic squeeze as the casualty leaves the water. Lifting the casualty horizontally will assist the body to keep the blood flow to the central core. When doing the trials for the best way to achieve this in the 70’s, a few contraptions were tried, but being weighty proved dangerous to the casualty and the winchman/diver when trying to place them on the casualty, especially in heavy seas. The double strop proved the best way, relatively easy to place and keeping the casualty in the perfect position for what we were trying to achieve. It later made sense to use this method whenever possible for the additional security and comfort of casualties. I have to stress in very heavy seas it is not always possible to achieve placing both the strops but the priority is to try to achieve this.
I have also used a harness, i.e. the four point harness (the harness the winchman wears) on casualties in situations similar to mentioned earlier, broken collar bones, dislocated shoulder and no room for a stretcher etc. On one occasion the casualty had an amputated arm and no room for a stretcher. The harness can be quite difficult to place on a casualty and again the situation may dictate it not possible, but we have to adapt to the situations we are presented with.
The single strop whether being used as a pair or on their own, in my view, in UK SAR will always be the main rescue tool because of the speed it can be applied in rough or cold seas or many other situations we can face when speed is of the essence. There are occasions when badly injured casualties have to be moved even before stabilisation because they are in life threating situations, slipping further down a cliff, tide coming in or slipping below the surface etc.
When winching personnel from a vessel that is at risk of sinking or on fire it may be necessary to send two casualties up at a time using two strops, one on each casualty, in these situations the winchman would make sure the beckets are secure and they are briefed on the importance of keeping their arms to the side.
When being winched with a casualty in a single lift strop I always had a physical grip with legs wrapped round the body and one hand holding the point the becket is positioned. This was as additional security to stop any chance of it sliding down.
Another important factor is it does require a strong physical grip, using legs and hands when a casualty goes unconscious while being winched in a single lift strop. The muscle tone will disappear from the casualty and the weight of the body will try to force the arms up so it’s important to watch out for the possibility of that happening. It has happened to me on a few occasions.
There are many situations when a high hover has to be achieved and winching from height is more difficult, especially for the winch-op whose visual references change considerably and the pilot having to look further into the distance for his hover references. But these situations are balanced between all the crew as to the safest way to achieve a rescue.
Continuous training for all the crews is essential.
aa777888 - see DPeel's excellent post above - there are so many variables in rescuing people with a winch that the single/double strop combination is the weapon of choice in most scenarios.
The time taken (even if injuries permit) to get a casualty into a harness (and they may be too big for that anyway) makes it impractical for all but a very few scenarios.
Another advantage of the single strop is that it can be used open-ended in the case of a cliff-sticker where the casualty cannot release his grip on the rock to have the strop placed in the normal fashion.
The time taken (even if injuries permit) to get a casualty into a harness (and they may be too big for that anyway) makes it impractical for all but a very few scenarios.
Another advantage of the single strop is that it can be used open-ended in the case of a cliff-sticker where the casualty cannot release his grip on the rock to have the strop placed in the normal fashion.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Second star on the left
Posts: 124
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Treg
Sorry for the late reply, but here goes:
1. Of the occasions you have undertaken single strop rescues, how many of these did the rescuer attached to the winch hook elect to wear a single strop in preference to a harness?
The rescuer would never opt to wear a strop. You have to be able to manouvre, even hang upside down at times, a strop would never allow that.
2. If it were possible to find those people you have rescued in a single strop over the years and explain to them the benefits of two strops (see Crab’s comments) would they, do you think, be happy with just a single strop if ever winched over land again?
I would never try and explain to a layman and give him the choice of how they are lifted. We have enough difficulty explaining what we do to experienced aircrew.
We use many different techniques depending on the siituation, giving the uninformed survivor a vote only puts both of your lives at risk.
3. In the context of in-depth-barrier-defence and risk management, is use of a single strop appropriate?
We were not there, who are we to judge what was apropriate.
I regret that there are a number of armchair amateurs who make comment on these threads, no insult intended. There are also a lot of experienced professionals who have grown up with different systems that work for them. We professionals have different opinions but the systems all work in the right circumstances; yes there are deaths but we do our best to avoid these by training hard and perfecting our skills. We also look at other peoples problems and try to learn from them.
I suggest that we close down this thread because it is not leading anywhere. We could make various suppositions and theories but if the guy had not broken his ankle would the rescue have been necessary.The guys on the spot had to deal with a problem and did so to the best of their ability, the outcome was unfortunate. Learn from it and let it go.
Oh and to get the story straight, I learnt a lot from Crab apart from how to ride a motorbike up steps.
Heads Down, look out for the flack.
Sorry for the late reply, but here goes:
1. Of the occasions you have undertaken single strop rescues, how many of these did the rescuer attached to the winch hook elect to wear a single strop in preference to a harness?
The rescuer would never opt to wear a strop. You have to be able to manouvre, even hang upside down at times, a strop would never allow that.
2. If it were possible to find those people you have rescued in a single strop over the years and explain to them the benefits of two strops (see Crab’s comments) would they, do you think, be happy with just a single strop if ever winched over land again?
I would never try and explain to a layman and give him the choice of how they are lifted. We have enough difficulty explaining what we do to experienced aircrew.
We use many different techniques depending on the siituation, giving the uninformed survivor a vote only puts both of your lives at risk.3. In the context of in-depth-barrier-defence and risk management, is use of a single strop appropriate?
We were not there, who are we to judge what was apropriate.
I regret that there are a number of armchair amateurs who make comment on these threads, no insult intended. There are also a lot of experienced professionals who have grown up with different systems that work for them. We professionals have different opinions but the systems all work in the right circumstances; yes there are deaths but we do our best to avoid these by training hard and perfecting our skills. We also look at other peoples problems and try to learn from them.
I suggest that we close down this thread because it is not leading anywhere. We could make various suppositions and theories but if the guy had not broken his ankle would the rescue have been necessary.
The guys on the spot had to deal with a problem and did so to the best of their ability, the outcome was unfortunate. Learn from it and let it go.Oh and to get the story straight, I learnt a lot from Crab apart from how to ride a motorbike up steps.
Heads Down, look out for the flack.
Last edited by Cabe LeCutter; 22nd Oct 2013 at 07:20. Reason: Spillchucker Failure
