Is there a better aircraft than the 109AII for the price ?
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Is there a better aircraft than the 109AII for the price ?
I spent over 20 years flying but never felt inclined to have an A 109 . I was under the impression they were fast but expensive and unreliable . Since then the price of a good , mid hour example has come down to sub $750,000 ( sub £500,000 ). Having bought one a couple of years ago I cannot understand why more companies / people do not use them !!! Single pilot IFR Twin Engine 145 knot cruise ( easily ), 2hr 40 min to dry and so many cheap spares around . It has worked out at around 50% of the cost of running my AS350
and hasn't missed a beat in the last 400 Hrs
So for that sort of money what can compare ...ie 6 pax , speed and endurance , ifr and price ????? It is the same money as a mid 80,s MD500 ( great machine but no comparison on pax, speed ,comfort etc ) and a mid 90 JetRanger .....
and hasn't missed a beat in the last 400 Hrs
So for that sort of money what can compare ...ie 6 pax , speed and endurance , ifr and price ????? It is the same money as a mid 80,s MD500 ( great machine but no comparison on pax, speed ,comfort etc ) and a mid 90 JetRanger .....
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Agree with some of your points but 6 pax is not realistic (at least not with any comfortable margins). But, if full pax isn't the primary concern then for a reliable light twin I would agree that on the surface, the Mk II appears to be a good value aircraft - not sure what kind of costs you're looking at for major overhauls mind you.
A strong plus, despite the lack of power compared to newer models, are the Allison donks. They (generally) just keep going and are not guzzlers.
Try giving this a read: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/435...109a-mkii.html
A strong plus, despite the lack of power compared to newer models, are the Allison donks. They (generally) just keep going and are not guzzlers.
Try giving this a read: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/435...109a-mkii.html
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A109AII
Interesting post, the very short answer is yes....
Things to look for if we haven’t turned you away from this Italianmama are Main Blade life’s, the boys and girls in Italy make the ‘old’ metal ones every blue moon so when you want a new set you will pay top dollar and that’s if they make it to full life as you still have an AD for blade cracks. Even a second hand set will set you back above pro rata prices.
The airframe, by default, is old, corroded and cracked cos the little bugger shakes like a fat girl on a washing machine. Your head pots only stop leaking when they have no oil in. The Allison C20B is old and puffed out with the AII+ being slightly better but not much. If you go for a C well there is no hope for you. The C was the test bed for the 109E M/R Blades and troublesome tail, need I say anymore????
Look at what toys have been added as that’s your fuel being drained away, toys mean weight and weight is an issue.
A109 Engineers all know each other and I can’t think of anyone in your area so be prepared to travel for experienced engineers, any Tom, Dickor H can tinker with this a/c but to keep it in the air when you pull pitch requires a chap/s on the ground who will nurse the old girl.
The two big checks are 2400hr (leave your wallet at the door) and the 3600Hr. Parts are cheap but when they are gone then they are gone ask any A109A operator/owner.
Other wise she's a real gem
Things to look for if we haven’t turned you away from this Italianmama are Main Blade life’s, the boys and girls in Italy make the ‘old’ metal ones every blue moon so when you want a new set you will pay top dollar and that’s if they make it to full life as you still have an AD for blade cracks. Even a second hand set will set you back above pro rata prices.
The airframe, by default, is old, corroded and cracked cos the little bugger shakes like a fat girl on a washing machine. Your head pots only stop leaking when they have no oil in. The Allison C20B is old and puffed out with the AII+ being slightly better but not much. If you go for a C well there is no hope for you. The C was the test bed for the 109E M/R Blades and troublesome tail, need I say anymore????
Look at what toys have been added as that’s your fuel being drained away, toys mean weight and weight is an issue.
A109 Engineers all know each other and I can’t think of anyone in your area so be prepared to travel for experienced engineers, any Tom, Dickor H can tinker with this a/c but to keep it in the air when you pull pitch requires a chap/s on the ground who will nurse the old girl.
The two big checks are 2400hr (leave your wallet at the door) and the 3600Hr. Parts are cheap but when they are gone then they are gone ask any A109A operator/owner.
Other wise she's a real gem
Last edited by B1-3; 12th Jul 2013 at 21:10.
I ran one for many years in Melbourne but it was expensive and the only 145kias that I saw was empty going downhill
Lots of stories to tell, but as a cheap option to an AS350 I'm not sure that would hold up in Oz.
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I was tempted, but having researched the maintenance requirements / cost I was put-off.
My research indicates that the "bargain" twin is the AS355
Just as well that I am happy with singles, then.
My research indicates that the "bargain" twin is the AS355
Just as well that I am happy with singles, then.
Yeah, full fuel and pilot plus 1 you get those endurance times.
Put 6 pax in the back and you are down to 45 mins.
And in Oz, that severely limits where you can go. Might be different where you are.
Put 6 pax in the back and you are down to 45 mins.
And in Oz, that severely limits where you can go. Might be different where you are.
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Some good replies !!
Ref spares .....I have a complete bitser machine with good blades , XMSN etc etc bought for next to nothing ....so no big parts bills coming .
145 knots is actually when at max weight ....150 Knot when just me and one other .
Corrosion ....well no sign of any so far but it is going in for full back to metal respray next month so I will let you know !!
I can guarantee that if you know what you are doing it will be a lot cheaper than a 355 and a hell of a lot faster ...trust me !!!
I would buy one for £400 k odd and buy one for spares for £100k odd .....sell 50 hours to people for £50k and fly for nothing !!!!!!
Still no takers for a better machine . 355 I don't think so but maybe the very next best thing .
Ref spares .....I have a complete bitser machine with good blades , XMSN etc etc bought for next to nothing ....so no big parts bills coming .
145 knots is actually when at max weight ....150 Knot when just me and one other .
Corrosion ....well no sign of any so far but it is going in for full back to metal respray next month so I will let you know !!
I can guarantee that if you know what you are doing it will be a lot cheaper than a 355 and a hell of a lot faster ...trust me !!!
I would buy one for £400 k odd and buy one for spares for £100k odd .....sell 50 hours to people for £50k and fly for nothing !!!!!!
Still no takers for a better machine . 355 I don't think so but maybe the very next best thing .
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The old one's are the best keep away from anything that will require major expense, such main rotor gearbox, main blades or engine work (but not always expensive if you have C20's).
Nice stable single pilot IFR platform.
Also keep inside not good if damp, Italian electrics, work very well if looked after.
Nice stable single pilot IFR platform.
Also keep inside not good if damp, Italian electrics, work very well if looked after.
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Still no takers for a better machine?
1 x Bell 222 @ £200k + 1 spares ship @ £100k but with the best part of the deal being that you get that classic Bell blade slap for free!
Thread Starter
Ok ...... But how many are out there cheap and grounded but otherwise good comp times ? There are loads of 109,s grounded now due to the 250 containment rings ... They are trickling onto the market for pennies providing a massive inventory of cheap parts for the ones remaining. .
Also the 109 is quicker and uses far far less fuel .
Lastly I believe there are places where the 222 is either banned or unwelcome due to noise .
Good try
Ps. I think training and check rides will get more difficult as well due to a lack of rated pilots ..?
Also the 109 is quicker and uses far far less fuel .
Lastly I believe there are places where the 222 is either banned or unwelcome due to noise .
Good try
Ps. I think training and check rides will get more difficult as well due to a lack of rated pilots ..?
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Ah well, I said I'd have a go!
Nigel, you seem totally convinced with the Mk II - and I'm sure Castle Air wouldn't disagree with you given their experience with the type.
Seeing as you're so certain of this heli's continuing viability, why not buy 4 or 5 airframes, keep a couple for spares and do up 2 or 3 for sale. Given your belief in them I am sure you would be able to shift them!
Nigel, you seem totally convinced with the Mk II - and I'm sure Castle Air wouldn't disagree with you given their experience with the type.
Seeing as you're so certain of this heli's continuing viability, why not buy 4 or 5 airframes, keep a couple for spares and do up 2 or 3 for sale. Given your belief in them I am sure you would be able to shift them!
Thread Starter
What a jolly good idea .... I hadn't thought of that. !!!!!!
Castle Air do a very good job with their 109,s ...... I was just genuinely interested how and why someone with £4 -500k to spend would buy anything else . It seems the next best thing would be a big jump in purchase price and operating cost of a Power ? And for the extra £1m you get very very little extra performance . I think the Mk 11 could well appreciate in value over the next 2-5 years ....just as the MD500 D has done .
So ... Who wants to buy one ???!!!!!
Castle Air do a very good job with their 109,s ...... I was just genuinely interested how and why someone with £4 -500k to spend would buy anything else . It seems the next best thing would be a big jump in purchase price and operating cost of a Power ? And for the extra £1m you get very very little extra performance . I think the Mk 11 could well appreciate in value over the next 2-5 years ....just as the MD500 D has done .
So ... Who wants to buy one ???!!!!!
Thread Starter
Well I am afraid I would have to disagree !!! I have owned 8 helicopters over the last 25yrs and I have only lost money on 1 , my AS350BA which I actually sold for £75k more than I paid ... But sadly had to spend £150k on Engine FOD damage first !! Recently I made a profit on my Enstrom 480B . A profit on a MD 500C. ( if I had bought the D I would have made twice the profit ) .
I bought my first 109 about 4 years ago when they were £500. - 600k for a mid 1980,s with good times . I have now bought another really nice machine and flown it for around 500 hours over the last couple of years . It is in paint at present and will look beautiful when it comes out and I am sure will be worth around £450 - 470k .....if I get an offer I may take it but I firmly believe they will go up by 20% over the next 3-5 years . Just look at the cost of the next step up to a Power
.........and its now cheaper than many 500,s of the same age and TT .....
I bought my first 109 about 4 years ago when they were £500. - 600k for a mid 1980,s with good times . I have now bought another really nice machine and flown it for around 500 hours over the last couple of years . It is in paint at present and will look beautiful when it comes out and I am sure will be worth around £450 - 470k .....if I get an offer I may take it but I firmly believe they will go up by 20% over the next 3-5 years . Just look at the cost of the next step up to a Power
.........and its now cheaper than many 500,s of the same age and TT .....
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Keep in mind.
A huge reason the prices of 500s have gone up is their use in powerline applications which have exploded in the past 5 years and the discontinuation of the 206.
A huge reason the prices of 500s have gone up is their use in powerline applications which have exploded in the past 5 years and the discontinuation of the 206.