Ornge helicopter crash
The Ornge operation is only conducting night operations to established helipads/LZ's or airports. All are marked with lights or retroreflective cones.
Again....there is no comparison to the ordinary Eye at night and what NVG's provide.
We talk of the "dark hole" approach....or take off into the black abyss....both go away with the use of NVG's.
What is the cost of this one crash....compared to equipping the Fleet with NVG's?
"Just a pilot"
We goggle up before skids up to skids down, it works just fine.
The darker and more featureless the terrain is, the greater the benefit of NVGs for VFR operations.
I am assured that it can be too dark for NVGs. That is definitely not VFR conditions, except to a lawyer. I'm a pilot.
The darker and more featureless the terrain is, the greater the benefit of NVGs for VFR operations.
I am assured that it can be too dark for NVGs. That is definitely not VFR conditions, except to a lawyer. I'm a pilot.
Tick....Tick....Tick......Tick!
Odd...one combines Government and Corrupt Management....turn a blind eye to what is going on....and we are surprised the result is all bad?
Gee....what were we thinking?
My heart goes out to the good folk at Ornge who are paying a price for the wrong done by their Senior Management in days gone bye....and can only remind them to hold to the safe side of doing things....no matter how much pressure they get to do otherwise.
The Spot Light is shining directly upon the Operation now....hang in there and wait for the positive changes that are bound to be coming. Just make sure you are part of the Solution and not part of the Problem while this goes on.
Odd...one combines Government and Corrupt Management....turn a blind eye to what is going on....and we are surprised the result is all bad?
Gee....what were we thinking?
My heart goes out to the good folk at Ornge who are paying a price for the wrong done by their Senior Management in days gone bye....and can only remind them to hold to the safe side of doing things....no matter how much pressure they get to do otherwise.
The Spot Light is shining directly upon the Operation now....hang in there and wait for the positive changes that are bound to be coming. Just make sure you are part of the Solution and not part of the Problem while this goes on.
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NVG
All our flights are not done in black holes area. I think we all understand the advantage of using NVG, we also all understand the cost related to it. We do a lot of night flight, 1/3 of my flying time is done at night.... But we also go to many area where we have good reference with many lights around. Depending which base you are working, you do a lot of black hole area or little. So, yes NVG are good but I don't believe we will get it because of the cost related to it.
We have many problems with Ornge related to the fact that they do not have the knowledge they should have. They think we are an airline operation??.?. We are not. The press again had to come up to bring our problem out because this is a big political affair. The government new about the Ornge scandal and now they try to save their image by trying to fix it.
It is wrong!! Ornge should have been shut down and a new system should have been started.
It is not the case and now we face this situation again and many are leaving because they can't take it anymore.
Now we face a different problem because when so many pilots are leaving in a short time, to replace them becomes a big problem. The only Sim available is in Whippany and they are booked, 22 hours a day, so to get somebody new takes a lot of time...... And now you hire anybody to fill the seat, we end up with guys coming as copilot with 500 hours of Robinson switching to the AW139?????????
How can you do that??????
We are not a school and you create a bad environment with low level crew.
Our IFR operation has been shut down and we all believe it was done by Transport Canada, not voluntary by Ornge, they will never do that.
So, we have multiple problems and nobody knows how it is gone be fixed.
Ornge is saying they are working on it, what the hell do they know about helicopters?????????????????????????????????????????!
We have many problems with Ornge related to the fact that they do not have the knowledge they should have. They think we are an airline operation??.?. We are not. The press again had to come up to bring our problem out because this is a big political affair. The government new about the Ornge scandal and now they try to save their image by trying to fix it.
It is wrong!! Ornge should have been shut down and a new system should have been started.
It is not the case and now we face this situation again and many are leaving because they can't take it anymore.
Now we face a different problem because when so many pilots are leaving in a short time, to replace them becomes a big problem. The only Sim available is in Whippany and they are booked, 22 hours a day, so to get somebody new takes a lot of time...... And now you hire anybody to fill the seat, we end up with guys coming as copilot with 500 hours of Robinson switching to the AW139?????????
How can you do that??????
We are not a school and you create a bad environment with low level crew.
Our IFR operation has been shut down and we all believe it was done by Transport Canada, not voluntary by Ornge, they will never do that.
So, we have multiple problems and nobody knows how it is gone be fixed.
Ornge is saying they are working on it, what the hell do they know about helicopters?????????????????????????????????????????!
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Arcal76,
To clarify, do you mean that ORNGE's O.C. No longer includes IFR operations for the AW139 or SK76? Or has the company just asked pilots to suspend IFR operations for the time being?
To clarify, do you mean that ORNGE's O.C. No longer includes IFR operations for the AW139 or SK76? Or has the company just asked pilots to suspend IFR operations for the time being?
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False Economy
Can't afford NVG's at $10K U.S. per set? Well, let's see: One equipped S-76, approximately $5M U.S.; 4 (at a minimum) lawsuits at $2M U.S. apiece; loss of good will (??? $$$)...
In round terms, that's $13 million Bucks just for starters.
NVG's, $10K per set, NVG aircraft mods, $20K per ship, training at $5K per pilot...that's $40K to get a ship and crew ready on the line. Dividing, it seems like that $13 million loss could provide 325 crewed and equipped aircraft.
Any CEO who still thinks NVG operations are too expensive should not be a CEO, he should be a college freshman retaking Accounting 101.
In round terms, that's $13 million Bucks just for starters.
NVG's, $10K per set, NVG aircraft mods, $20K per ship, training at $5K per pilot...that's $40K to get a ship and crew ready on the line. Dividing, it seems like that $13 million loss could provide 325 crewed and equipped aircraft.
Any CEO who still thinks NVG operations are too expensive should not be a CEO, he should be a college freshman retaking Accounting 101.
"Just a pilot"
I started doing nights in Vietnam. Nap of the earth pilotage operations, all the way up to radar vectors to "targets" at IFR altitudes.
I started HEMS in 2001, in area that encompasses high cultural lighting urban areas, extensively forested no cultural lighting mountains, and everything in between.
We started operating aided in 2011. It is the single greatest enhancement to night operation safety.
My opinion- if an operator can't afford NVG, they can't afford night operations. My employer agrees, requiring management approval of each and every unaided night operation, and then- only in very, very favorable pre-defined circumstances.
I started HEMS in 2001, in area that encompasses high cultural lighting urban areas, extensively forested no cultural lighting mountains, and everything in between.
We started operating aided in 2011. It is the single greatest enhancement to night operation safety.
My opinion- if an operator can't afford NVG, they can't afford night operations. My employer agrees, requiring management approval of each and every unaided night operation, and then- only in very, very favorable pre-defined circumstances.
My experience tracks with 49's.....and I whole heartedly endorse his comments.
If you fly after dark....anywhere....go for NVG's....you cannot afford not to do so!
Commonsense tells you it is the right thing to do.
Why would you want to run around either blind or nearly blind when you can open thine eyes and see the light.....so to speak!
If you fly after dark....anywhere....go for NVG's....you cannot afford not to do so!
Commonsense tells you it is the right thing to do.
Why would you want to run around either blind or nearly blind when you can open thine eyes and see the light.....so to speak!
Avoid imitations
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To clarify...
Yes, our IFR was removed because of deficiencies between our training and what is requiered on our OPS manual.
Yes many are leaving for the offshore world. If you can't take it anymore,that's what happen......
They are now talking about a study on NVG's but they already told us that the retrofit for the 139 cost 1 million $, so no hope......
Many are waiting to see if we gone get a new union contract who has expired 3 years ago
And if we do net get anything good, more will leave
Yes, our IFR was removed because of deficiencies between our training and what is requiered on our OPS manual.
Yes many are leaving for the offshore world. If you can't take it anymore,that's what happen......
They are now talking about a study on NVG's but they already told us that the retrofit for the 139 cost 1 million $, so no hope......
Many are waiting to see if we gone get a new union contract who has expired 3 years ago
And if we do net get anything good, more will leave
A cautious welcome from the offshore world if that's where you all want to head to next. In general our training is pretty good, but be warned that you will be expected to depart an airport at night without NVG. And you will be expected to land back at an airport without NVG. And the tens of thousands of night landings done offshore to a single lit rig in a sea of black ink will all be done without NVG. Same with the rig takeoff, rotating into your feared "black hole" at zero airspeed and just the discipline of procedure, pitch and power to keep you safe - no NVG to help you there either.
Anyway, 200 hr Bristow Academy cadets coming from R22's seem to be able to pick it up without drama or incident, so perhaps the cream of Canadian helicopter IFR can as well.
Anyway, 200 hr Bristow Academy cadets coming from R22's seem to be able to pick it up without drama or incident, so perhaps the cream of Canadian helicopter IFR can as well.
Gee.....you reckon NVG's might help on those night offshore landings.....the ones that seem to be the ones that helicopters hit the water on every now and then? Any Dolt can land to a lighted IFR Runway without NVG's.
"Just a pilot"
One can fly IFR in VMC, but not VFR in IMC
The fact that one has VMC ceiling and visibility doesn't mean the conditions are such to meet the challenges involved in maintaining control and safely operating the aircraft visually. If the existing conditions meet VMC requirements, one might still not have adequate visual cue to operate safely. Flat light, featureless terrain on overcast nights, a calm sea offshore without significant surface features are examples of situations where one might have technically legal vis and ceiling that is not sufficient for safe operation.
Real world requirements to operate VFR (at least in the US) are set out in FAR 135.207, "No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter." Which is in addition to VMC minimums. If you don't have sufficient surface reference to safely control the helicopter, you can't operate VFR. Aided night vision doesn't improve the weather, it increases the flight crew's ability to acquire sufficient surface reference.
Yes, there situations that NVGs don't improve. The argument presented that the lack of aided night vision equipment was a cost issue suggests that the operating conditions in the area are such that NVGs would be effective. If this accident is finally attributed to CFIT due to lack of adequate surface reference while operating VFR at night, unaided, that million dollar charge per airframe for NVG will prove a mistaken economic priority for VFR operations.
It's easy to spend money when it not your own, easier still to criticize with benefit of hindsight a management decision. As a pilot, I'd consider the sacrifice of aircraft capability and cost to get the benefit of aided night vision good decision if I was operating outside of high cultural lighting areas.
Real world requirements to operate VFR (at least in the US) are set out in FAR 135.207, "No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter." Which is in addition to VMC minimums. If you don't have sufficient surface reference to safely control the helicopter, you can't operate VFR. Aided night vision doesn't improve the weather, it increases the flight crew's ability to acquire sufficient surface reference.
Yes, there situations that NVGs don't improve. The argument presented that the lack of aided night vision equipment was a cost issue suggests that the operating conditions in the area are such that NVGs would be effective. If this accident is finally attributed to CFIT due to lack of adequate surface reference while operating VFR at night, unaided, that million dollar charge per airframe for NVG will prove a mistaken economic priority for VFR operations.
It's easy to spend money when it not your own, easier still to criticize with benefit of hindsight a management decision. As a pilot, I'd consider the sacrifice of aircraft capability and cost to get the benefit of aided night vision good decision if I was operating outside of high cultural lighting areas.
Last edited by Devil 49; 7th Jul 2013 at 03:10.
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The reality is.........
For those who watched this event, it is impressive to see that it took more than one hour and a lot of push from Frank Klees for Transport Canada to admit that the non-compliance found during the inspection would have stop the operation.
The answer given by TC made me laugh when they said that Ornge decide by themselves to stop their pilots to fly until the training was completed.
The reality is:
Ornge did not have any choice and it was better for Ornge to say that they decided to stop some part of their operation until crew would be trained in order to comply with the rules than having TC shutting them down. Of course, in this case, TC would have to provide a lot of justification to the government because shutting down the Air Ambulance after so many scandals will necessary need answers which is completely wrong. There is no reason why the Air Ambulance should have any privilege. If you don't comply with the rule, you should be stopped.
Part of our problems was related to imcomplete training which made our IFR operation suspended in May. Well, TC should have say your IFR ticket is invalided until you fix this problem, but of course, without an IFR ticket we don't fly at night anymore....BIG PROBLEM!!!!!!!!! Since 1/3 of our hours are done at night, TC would have to explain this new reality and I am sure the inspector in charge was not open to do that.......
So, we did no fly iFR during Summer and our IFR was only given back to us after some crew went to do their training on the Sim and finally when TC was able to accept a training done on the aircraft, training completed only during the last 2 weeks.
How great Transport Canada is........
The answer given by TC made me laugh when they said that Ornge decide by themselves to stop their pilots to fly until the training was completed.
The reality is:
Ornge did not have any choice and it was better for Ornge to say that they decided to stop some part of their operation until crew would be trained in order to comply with the rules than having TC shutting them down. Of course, in this case, TC would have to provide a lot of justification to the government because shutting down the Air Ambulance after so many scandals will necessary need answers which is completely wrong. There is no reason why the Air Ambulance should have any privilege. If you don't comply with the rule, you should be stopped.
Part of our problems was related to imcomplete training which made our IFR operation suspended in May. Well, TC should have say your IFR ticket is invalided until you fix this problem, but of course, without an IFR ticket we don't fly at night anymore....BIG PROBLEM!!!!!!!!! Since 1/3 of our hours are done at night, TC would have to explain this new reality and I am sure the inspector in charge was not open to do that.......
So, we did no fly iFR during Summer and our IFR was only given back to us after some crew went to do their training on the Sim and finally when TC was able to accept a training done on the aircraft, training completed only during the last 2 weeks.
How great Transport Canada is........
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What Transport Canada did or did not do is a Red Herring, if Orange had complied with the requirements as they exist by regulations and work needs, TC would not have been involved at all.
Ah....but.....if TC had been involved.....Ornge would have been doing the right thing all along now wouldn't they?