Brantly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brantly
Has anyone performed autorotations in the Brantly helicopter, and is able to comment on the autorotation in respect to; hover time, rate of descent, flare, etc.?
The inner portion of a helicopter's rotor disk 'drives' the outer portion during autorotations, and the Brantly has a very unique inner portion.
____________
Reprint of Brantly rotor specifications;
"The most outstanding feature of the Model B-2 is the three-bladed all metal main rotor which employs two sets of flapping hinges with lag hinges which are coincident with the outboard flapping hinges at approximately 40% of the blade radius. The inboard blade has a symmetrical section with a 29% thickness ratio and an effective chord of 8.84 inches. It is set at an angle of incidence which is 4 degrees greater than the outboard blade which has a modified NACA 0012 section with an 8 inch chord."
"This method of construction is designed to provide complete freedom of motion of the outboard blade sections which experience practically all of the aerodynamic forces of lift and drag."
The inner portion of a helicopter's rotor disk 'drives' the outer portion during autorotations, and the Brantly has a very unique inner portion.
____________
Reprint of Brantly rotor specifications;
"The most outstanding feature of the Model B-2 is the three-bladed all metal main rotor which employs two sets of flapping hinges with lag hinges which are coincident with the outboard flapping hinges at approximately 40% of the blade radius. The inboard blade has a symmetrical section with a 29% thickness ratio and an effective chord of 8.84 inches. It is set at an angle of incidence which is 4 degrees greater than the outboard blade which has a modified NACA 0012 section with an 8 inch chord."
"This method of construction is designed to provide complete freedom of motion of the outboard blade sections which experience practically all of the aerodynamic forces of lift and drag."
Scalextric for Men
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Southern England outside the M25
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a tiny thread to the main question.
In a photograph that I once saw.
Keith Moon the legendary drummer with The Who; was pictured in his garden, with trappings of success: Rolls Royce, and a Brantly.
So did he fly or does the pilot continue to fly?
Happy Christmas everyone.
In a photograph that I once saw.
Keith Moon the legendary drummer with The Who; was pictured in his garden, with trappings of success: Rolls Royce, and a Brantly.
So did he fly or does the pilot continue to fly?
Happy Christmas everyone.
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Capn N,
From my memories, Kieth Moon(or Moon the Lune) flew every day, on what, we can only guess? but most of the time it wasn't powered by 100LL, more the fume's!
From my memories, Kieth Moon(or Moon the Lune) flew every day, on what, we can only guess? but most of the time it wasn't powered by 100LL, more the fume's!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keith Moon's successor as Who drummer, Kenny Jones (previously of The Faces) was a helicopter pilot who at one time shared a Bell 47 with the singer David Essex. Both learned to fly with Alan Mann at Fairoaks, and I believe both have since allowed their licences to lapse.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
… but to answer the question, the new Brantly B2B was flight-tested for Pilot magazine in the UK by Derek Jones in March 1999. He wrote: “Entering autorotation is no problem as you just lower the lever and keep straight with about half right pedal. The throttle correlation split the needles and there was only a small nose-down pitch. Rate of descent stabilised at a reasonable 1,600 fpm at 55 mph, with the rotor rpm at 460. The maximum allowed is 472. Rolling into moderate turns resulted in a slow rise in rpm, without any collective lever correction required to stay within the limit. It is recommended that the engine is maintained at 2,000 rpm during these manoeuvres, to avoid embarrassing silences.
“The rotor inertia on the Brantly is somewhat greater than that of the Robinson R22, and therefore gives a bigger margin for error during engine-off landings. However, you do have to roll off the throttle as the lever is raised for the touchdown, to prevent the engine re-engaging the freewheel. For practises, it is recommended to run onto the ground at 15 – 20 mph on smooth surfaces, following a flare initiated at 50 – 60 feet. The well-sprung undercarriage is forgiving of errors, although the closeness of the blades to the tailcone would concentrate the mind in the event of a tail-down arrival. Powered go-rounds just require raising the collective to join the needles and co-ordinating the throttle slightly to prevent overspeeding, then settling the speed again at 60 mph for the climb. A happy by-product of the fuel injected engine is not having to remember the carb heat at low power settings.”
Hope this helps. Incidentally, it's not the inner portion of the blade that drives the outer during autorotation. Only the centre section provides an autorotative force.
“The rotor inertia on the Brantly is somewhat greater than that of the Robinson R22, and therefore gives a bigger margin for error during engine-off landings. However, you do have to roll off the throttle as the lever is raised for the touchdown, to prevent the engine re-engaging the freewheel. For practises, it is recommended to run onto the ground at 15 – 20 mph on smooth surfaces, following a flare initiated at 50 – 60 feet. The well-sprung undercarriage is forgiving of errors, although the closeness of the blades to the tailcone would concentrate the mind in the event of a tail-down arrival. Powered go-rounds just require raising the collective to join the needles and co-ordinating the throttle slightly to prevent overspeeding, then settling the speed again at 60 mph for the climb. A happy by-product of the fuel injected engine is not having to remember the carb heat at low power settings.”
Hope this helps. Incidentally, it's not the inner portion of the blade that drives the outer during autorotation. Only the centre section provides an autorotative force.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
t'aint natural
Thanks for the reprint of autorotation in the Brantly, and your correction of my error.
The inquiry has to do with autorotation using a pair of hypothetical rotors where the airfoil does not start until about 30% of radius, also, most of the lift is on the advancing blades (ABC) whereas the stall region has been shifted toward the retreating blades during forward flight. The unusual configuration of the Brantly was therefor of interest and it appears that it functions very well. Thanks.
Thanks for the reprint of autorotation in the Brantly, and your correction of my error.
The inquiry has to do with autorotation using a pair of hypothetical rotors where the airfoil does not start until about 30% of radius, also, most of the lift is on the advancing blades (ABC) whereas the stall region has been shifted toward the retreating blades during forward flight. The unusual configuration of the Brantly was therefor of interest and it appears that it functions very well. Thanks.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brantly
Can anyone supply some information about the Brantly helicopter. I have read only good things about them yet they are not very common in the UK.
Has anybody flown one and are there any instuctors out there still current on one, any information would be greatly appreciated.
Has anybody flown one and are there any instuctors out there still current on one, any information would be greatly appreciated.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Amazon man,
There was a new one at HAI Heli-Expo in Orlando; I really liked the look of them and I chatted to some people from the company who are making them out there; yes, they're still being made. He said there are some around in the UK, and gave me the names and addresses of a few people. I'm in the US right now, but going back to the UK next Wednesday; I'll look them up for you, unless you've had some better source of info by then. If I forget, e-mail me and remind me!
There was a new one at HAI Heli-Expo in Orlando; I really liked the look of them and I chatted to some people from the company who are making them out there; yes, they're still being made. He said there are some around in the UK, and gave me the names and addresses of a few people. I'm in the US right now, but going back to the UK next Wednesday; I'll look them up for you, unless you've had some better source of info by then. If I forget, e-mail me and remind me!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Amazon Man,
There is an insructor based at Liverpool Airport( the Civil Flying Side) but not sure who he works for( at least there was 4 months ago, I spoke with him, about the odd looking rotors on the Brantly)
There is an insructor based at Liverpool Airport( the Civil Flying Side) but not sure who he works for( at least there was 4 months ago, I spoke with him, about the odd looking rotors on the Brantly)
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brantly B2B?
Any one out there flown these things? any sort of a pilot report/impresions after flying one would be good to hear.
would they be suitable for something like aerial mustering??
would they be suitable for something like aerial mustering??
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South East England
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Wizard,
My best mate owns two of these things, we are based in the UK.
See this Months Pilot mag which has a great article on the B2B (and my mate). If you want to talk over any aspects, please send me a pm via email.
Happy
My best mate owns two of these things, we are based in the UK.
See this Months Pilot mag which has a great article on the B2B (and my mate). If you want to talk over any aspects, please send me a pm via email.
Happy
I bought a B-2B last year. I always thought they were too ugly and loud, but they fly like a dream. They handle very nice, visibility is great, and they are quite smooth, with the unique blade design that they have. Three other guys in my local area also have Brantlys and we fly them quite often.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanx guys, do they have any funnies about them, Eg, maintanance wise.......... nothing stupid like main rotor TBO of 800hrs or super expensive AD's?
....just don't attempt a passenger change while the rotors are turning.
The early James Bond movies used them, but only for the explosions!
The early James Bond movies used them, but only for the explosions!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"....just don't attempt a passenger change while the rotors are turning."
Sounds a little like the Helicycle. In the earlier model, the rotor was engaged by the pilot standing outside the craft. One hand was on the collective and the other was on an engagement lever located behind the cabin. He said that when walking around the craft, always have the knuckles of one hand dragging on the ground.
_____________
Remainder of post removed and relocated on a new thread ~ Turbine Helicycle.
Sounds a little like the Helicycle. In the earlier model, the rotor was engaged by the pilot standing outside the craft. One hand was on the collective and the other was on an engagement lever located behind the cabin. He said that when walking around the craft, always have the knuckles of one hand dragging on the ground.
_____________
Remainder of post removed and relocated on a new thread ~ Turbine Helicycle.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B2B Flight Review...
Greetings,
This weekend, I drove down to Washington, North Carolina to fly the Brantly B2B for a few hours. I took a "Brantly B2B Introductory Course" at East Carolina Helicopters that was geared toward the certificated helicopter pilot.
For those of you interested, here is my trip report and some opinions I have about this helicopter. As a PPL(H) with mostly R22 time and a few hours on the B47, my experience is very limited. Nevertheless, I have to say that there are some dramatic differences in the B2B that are pretty interesting.
First, the construction of the B2B seems overdone when compared to other ships (even the B47). This ship has a LOT of heavy steel throughout the construction, but that heavy construction provided a very smooth ride and gave me a feeling of improved safety. The B2B has a high inertia main rotor system. In fact, the rotor head alone is four times the weight of the R22 rotor head.
The short rigid mast, fully articulated, eliminates any chance of mast bumping. Furthermore, zero G and negative G do not create an issue or challenge as they do in the Robbie because of the weird rotor design. Unlike other articulated helicopters, the unique multi-articulated main rotor makes ground resonance impossible because of the lead-lag found on the outboard blades (there are three main inboard blades and three smaller outboard blades).
Since this ship is so rugged in construction, I could barely feel any shudder during ETL at all. I expected the performance to be significantly lacking from a 4-cylinder piston engine with all that weight, but I was pleasantly surprised. Once airborne and in ETL, the B2B had a lot of performance and more power than I could use (even with almost 600 pounds). In fact, I found it a little TOO easy get forward air speed... very slick, aerodynamically.
The glide during autorotation was what impressed me the most. No need to do anything with the collective all the way down (even in turning auto's). Obviously, this was smoother than an R22 auto, but it was even smoother than the B47 auto! I couldn't attribute the S-L-O-W and E-A-S-Y decent to any kind of thermal since the wind sock was flat and it was cool from the earlier rain that morning. Unlike the Robbie, I even had time to make radio calls and enjoy the ride during the B2B autorotation.
During OGE setting with power exercises at 2000 MSL, the Brantly B2B barely shuddered to indicate we weren't getting enough new air through the blades. No real yaw or wild pitch changes - and vibrations seemed almost "hushed." Recovery took less effort with barely any forward cyclic at all. A second setting with power exercise to an autorotation was conducted with similar glide results as before... felt like we were doing an auto through layers of cotton balls!
Throttle management was much easier in the B2B than the B47, but I really don't have enough time in the Bell to give fair comparison. On the ground, once you brought throttle to 20", all I really had to do was stiffen my grip on the throttle during the rest of the flight with minor adjustments required for altitude changes. Slightly leading the throttle with collective seemed natural after a couple of hours.
The Kevlar centrifugal clutch is automatic, which allowed us to change passengers without shutting down (requires quick throttle chop and application of rotor brake). This was a nice feature, because you can safely change passengers without concern of any kind of blade strike. Also, the electronic trim was very easy to use during flight.
In contrast, I found the hover power requirements for the B2B a little excessive unless we were into the wind. This adversely affected our ability to initiate a maximum performance takeoff. Since we were at sea level, this was definitely disappointing. When fully loaded, it took almost all 28" of MAP for this fuel injected machine to reach ETL. Fortunately, it only takes a second to quickly gain altitude in forward flight - and then power requirements were minimal. Once we were above 40 MPH, the sleek aerodynamic design made this ship cut through the air with much more ease.
Furthermore, I found the left pedal tail rotor authority lacking. It took a great deal of left pedal to keep stable, which made me very conscious of the wind direction at all times. This is probably because the anti-torque rotors are on the right hand side, instead of left. These blades had a HEAVY spar with aluminum outer construction. The R22 anti-torque blades are of better design and provide much more tail rotor authority.
Since the B2B has oleo struts, landing was definitely a different experience. You feel the skids “touch,” but since you are on hydraulic struts you aren’t all the way down, yet. You have to continue your decent with a stable attitude and land “though the deck” before you are completely on the ground. After a little practice, I found this cushion will almost guide you in the last few inches if you get a little more light handed with the cyclic. It will definitely make slope landings much easier!
The staff at East Carolina Helicopters http://www.eastcarolinahelicopters.com was extremely knowledgeable. The ground instruction was never boring, and the owner used to be an engineer for Brantly many years ago. They had retired parts that you could bang on without worry, which was very useful during ground instruction. It helped with the visualization, and was reminiscent of the RHC Factory Course. The CFI had about 900 R22 hours and several hundred B2B hours, so he did a great job of transition training. I had so much fun; I stayed long enough to do a little night flying in the B2B.
Finally, I would summarize my experience with the Brantly B2B as very positive, and I look forward to flying her again. There are pros and cons to every ship, and I hope I was able to express both in an amicable manner.
R2
This weekend, I drove down to Washington, North Carolina to fly the Brantly B2B for a few hours. I took a "Brantly B2B Introductory Course" at East Carolina Helicopters that was geared toward the certificated helicopter pilot.
For those of you interested, here is my trip report and some opinions I have about this helicopter. As a PPL(H) with mostly R22 time and a few hours on the B47, my experience is very limited. Nevertheless, I have to say that there are some dramatic differences in the B2B that are pretty interesting.
First, the construction of the B2B seems overdone when compared to other ships (even the B47). This ship has a LOT of heavy steel throughout the construction, but that heavy construction provided a very smooth ride and gave me a feeling of improved safety. The B2B has a high inertia main rotor system. In fact, the rotor head alone is four times the weight of the R22 rotor head.
The short rigid mast, fully articulated, eliminates any chance of mast bumping. Furthermore, zero G and negative G do not create an issue or challenge as they do in the Robbie because of the weird rotor design. Unlike other articulated helicopters, the unique multi-articulated main rotor makes ground resonance impossible because of the lead-lag found on the outboard blades (there are three main inboard blades and three smaller outboard blades).
Since this ship is so rugged in construction, I could barely feel any shudder during ETL at all. I expected the performance to be significantly lacking from a 4-cylinder piston engine with all that weight, but I was pleasantly surprised. Once airborne and in ETL, the B2B had a lot of performance and more power than I could use (even with almost 600 pounds). In fact, I found it a little TOO easy get forward air speed... very slick, aerodynamically.
The glide during autorotation was what impressed me the most. No need to do anything with the collective all the way down (even in turning auto's). Obviously, this was smoother than an R22 auto, but it was even smoother than the B47 auto! I couldn't attribute the S-L-O-W and E-A-S-Y decent to any kind of thermal since the wind sock was flat and it was cool from the earlier rain that morning. Unlike the Robbie, I even had time to make radio calls and enjoy the ride during the B2B autorotation.
During OGE setting with power exercises at 2000 MSL, the Brantly B2B barely shuddered to indicate we weren't getting enough new air through the blades. No real yaw or wild pitch changes - and vibrations seemed almost "hushed." Recovery took less effort with barely any forward cyclic at all. A second setting with power exercise to an autorotation was conducted with similar glide results as before... felt like we were doing an auto through layers of cotton balls!
Throttle management was much easier in the B2B than the B47, but I really don't have enough time in the Bell to give fair comparison. On the ground, once you brought throttle to 20", all I really had to do was stiffen my grip on the throttle during the rest of the flight with minor adjustments required for altitude changes. Slightly leading the throttle with collective seemed natural after a couple of hours.
The Kevlar centrifugal clutch is automatic, which allowed us to change passengers without shutting down (requires quick throttle chop and application of rotor brake). This was a nice feature, because you can safely change passengers without concern of any kind of blade strike. Also, the electronic trim was very easy to use during flight.
In contrast, I found the hover power requirements for the B2B a little excessive unless we were into the wind. This adversely affected our ability to initiate a maximum performance takeoff. Since we were at sea level, this was definitely disappointing. When fully loaded, it took almost all 28" of MAP for this fuel injected machine to reach ETL. Fortunately, it only takes a second to quickly gain altitude in forward flight - and then power requirements were minimal. Once we were above 40 MPH, the sleek aerodynamic design made this ship cut through the air with much more ease.
Furthermore, I found the left pedal tail rotor authority lacking. It took a great deal of left pedal to keep stable, which made me very conscious of the wind direction at all times. This is probably because the anti-torque rotors are on the right hand side, instead of left. These blades had a HEAVY spar with aluminum outer construction. The R22 anti-torque blades are of better design and provide much more tail rotor authority.
Since the B2B has oleo struts, landing was definitely a different experience. You feel the skids “touch,” but since you are on hydraulic struts you aren’t all the way down, yet. You have to continue your decent with a stable attitude and land “though the deck” before you are completely on the ground. After a little practice, I found this cushion will almost guide you in the last few inches if you get a little more light handed with the cyclic. It will definitely make slope landings much easier!
The staff at East Carolina Helicopters http://www.eastcarolinahelicopters.com was extremely knowledgeable. The ground instruction was never boring, and the owner used to be an engineer for Brantly many years ago. They had retired parts that you could bang on without worry, which was very useful during ground instruction. It helped with the visualization, and was reminiscent of the RHC Factory Course. The CFI had about 900 R22 hours and several hundred B2B hours, so he did a great job of transition training. I had so much fun; I stayed long enough to do a little night flying in the B2B.
Finally, I would summarize my experience with the Brantly B2B as very positive, and I look forward to flying her again. There are pros and cons to every ship, and I hope I was able to express both in an amicable manner.
R2