UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
Interesting too is the managed path the RAF have created. Take it from me, it is a work of fiction. Min req for a SAR captain will be 500 hrs on type (ask bristows, they'll tell you). They are hiring NOW to fill their SAR slots, putting guys on the oil and gas run, to get the hours up. They are recruiting like crazy. Any mil SAR guy will need to be out the RAF/RN and able to work for Bristows THIS year or they have well and truly missed the boat. The managed path is a myth to stop people pvr'ing.
Check with Bristows. The RAF guys will almost certainly not see a SAR seat unless they are prepared to work for years as a low paid co.
Don't take my word for it, check for yourself. I did.
Check with Bristows. The RAF guys will almost certainly not see a SAR seat unless they are prepared to work for years as a low paid co.
Don't take my word for it, check for yourself. I did.
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Not sure which co's are low paid now that Bond management have changed and caught up with the rest to prevent rated P2's leaving. As for that work of fiction the RAF created, it must be as they never created the existing one, useless as it is. That despite senior MoD officials promising jobs for the boys.....
The hours on type are a contractual requirement, it's always been the case in CivSAR for both P1's and P2's.
2 machines per base is the figure quoted, every base that is. As it stands the current S92 bases averaged 97-98% plus serviceability over the last 5 and a half years.
The hours on type are a contractual requirement, it's always been the case in CivSAR for both P1's and P2's.
2 machines per base is the figure quoted, every base that is. As it stands the current S92 bases averaged 97-98% plus serviceability over the last 5 and a half years.
Last edited by Hedski; 31st Mar 2013 at 19:41.
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All the mil sar guys will get a chance to ask Bristow at their road shows. If there really is to be no managed path or reasonable route into a relatively well paid job (co or capt) then watch the pvrs fly in and the whole wheels will come off an already barely manageable manpower plot. Could be interesting!
Check with Bristows. The RAF guys will almost certainly not see a SAR seat unless they are prepared to work for years as a low paid co.
Incorrect. Plenty of PA flt lt's on over 70k, some on 75k plus. Check the payscales online. And as PA, there is no flying pay...it's all pensionable.
Last edited by Baldeep Inminj; 31st Mar 2013 at 20:50.
Baldeep - excellent name btw, took me a couple of readings to get it
is correct ref PA pay.
is correct ref PA pay.
. Check the payscales online. And as PA, there is no flying pay...it's all pensionable.
Ah, just found the PA scales! http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getm...1B9BC7740EE0B6
Last edited by 212man; 31st Mar 2013 at 21:17. Reason: Found the PA scales
NS - so it does! It also lists the SP(F) rates - how do they tie into the PA concept? Thanks
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212man, they don't, hence the higher rates of pay in the PA spine. The biggest difference is that PA pay is ALL basic pay, so it is all pensionable 
SP(F) is classed as additional pay and therefore doesn't count in a normal Flt Lt aircrews pension.
SP(F) is classed as additional pay and therefore doesn't count in a normal Flt Lt aircrews pension.
Last edited by Norma Snockers; 31st Mar 2013 at 21:39.
So presumably the Spec Aircrew concept has been subsumed into this PA spine scale? Jeez - blink and you miss it!
The PVR's might fly in but unless something has changed they do not have to be accepted do they?
Not an ideal situation to have unhappy people flying, however I am sure that the professionalism we have heard so much about on the SAR thread will prevail.
After all when you sign on and take Betty's shilling you are doing so as a member of the armed forces not as for example a SAR pilot. Bars on PVR have been applied before. An example being the army bar on aircraft technicians leaving by PVR as Lynx was comming in to service due to the requirement for more staff.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in respect of the hours required is that such things are set in conjunction with insurers. They lower time the pilot the higher the premiums.
I wonder if the aircraft are being insured commercially or whether the government is offering some form of indemnity.
Not an ideal situation to have unhappy people flying, however I am sure that the professionalism we have heard so much about on the SAR thread will prevail.
After all when you sign on and take Betty's shilling you are doing so as a member of the armed forces not as for example a SAR pilot. Bars on PVR have been applied before. An example being the army bar on aircraft technicians leaving by PVR as Lynx was comming in to service due to the requirement for more staff.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in respect of the hours required is that such things are set in conjunction with insurers. They lower time the pilot the higher the premiums.
I wonder if the aircraft are being insured commercially or whether the government is offering some form of indemnity.
... I wonder if the aircraft are being insured commercially or whether the government is offering some form of indemnity.
ITT Schedule 7.6, Required Insurances:
Part 1
1. Property Damage "All Risks" Insurance
2. Third Party Public Liability Insurance
3. Motor Vehicle Insurance
Part 2
1. Aircraft Hull "All Risks" Insurance
2. Aircraft Hull War Risks Insurance
3. Aviation Liability Insurance (including Products Liability)
4. Errors and Omissions Liability Insurance for Paramedics
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Don't panic too much, whatever job you take on leaving the services is GENERALLY going to mean a pay cut. As a police/AA onshore captain, you are looking around the 45-50k (ish) figure all in, no flying pay. One of these so called offshore low-paid co-pilots will not be too far from that figure as a starting salary. A pension certainly offsets that difference as well.
Unless you have a mansion to pay for, this is not a bad old wage in civvie street, you just get used to the higher military money and think you actually deserve it. Once you make offshore captain, you can resume bathing in ass's milk.
Unless you have a mansion to pay for, this is not a bad old wage in civvie street, you just get used to the higher military money and think you actually deserve it. Once you make offshore captain, you can resume bathing in ass's milk.
Damn the pay scales. The ones I want hovering above me are the ones who just want to fly. I know they're out there. Bristow will let them do that in a really interesting way until they are 60.
I've met the ones who go on and on about what they could be earning somewhere else every time they get a cup of coffee in their hand and do so miss the boarding school allowance. Well crack on mate, we'll have a whip round for your bus fare and remember to wash your cup before you leave.
I've met the ones who go on and on about what they could be earning somewhere else every time they get a cup of coffee in their hand and do so miss the boarding school allowance. Well crack on mate, we'll have a whip round for your bus fare and remember to wash your cup before you leave.
Last edited by jimf671; 1st Apr 2013 at 07:49.
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They are hiring NOW to fill their SAR slots, putting guys on the oil and gas run, to get the hours up. They are recruiting like crazy.
Check with Bristows. The RAF guys will almost certainly not see a SAR seat unless they are prepared to work for years as a low paid co
212man - the transition from spec aircrew to PA spine happened about 10 years ago - shortly before the new pension system AFPS 05.
Neither were difficult decisions to make - more money now AND more money later........a no-brainer really and it made a huge difference to a Flt Lt pension.
As for PVRs - theoretically they can hang on to you for as long as they like but I'm not sure that has ever been applied or tested - normally the maximum wait is 12 months (or 6 months if you are over 50).
If the managed transition doesn't work and mil guys are offered poor terms and conditions then they may try to PVR and be held which (if not on PA) loses them flying pay. Morale will go down the tubes and the number of stress-related groundings will go up leaving bigger and bigger holes in the manning plot.
This will be a significant flight safety risk which is why it is in everyone's interests to make the transition work.
Trying to screw over ex-mil with reduced wages (because they have pensions) will mean the good guys will go for other options leaving the contractor to pick up only those who have no other choices - not trhe best way to ensure a smooth transition retaining high quality SAR experience around the UK is it?
I don't think any of us would have a problem with sitting in the co's seat offshore for 6 months to gain hours on type providing the guarantee of the captaincy at a specific SAR flight thereafter was honoured. That way you satisfy your hours on type requirement, get to know the individuals and retain the SAR experience and enthusiasm you hired them for in the first place.
All that is required is mutual trust and honesty.
Neither were difficult decisions to make - more money now AND more money later........a no-brainer really and it made a huge difference to a Flt Lt pension.
As for PVRs - theoretically they can hang on to you for as long as they like but I'm not sure that has ever been applied or tested - normally the maximum wait is 12 months (or 6 months if you are over 50).
If the managed transition doesn't work and mil guys are offered poor terms and conditions then they may try to PVR and be held which (if not on PA) loses them flying pay. Morale will go down the tubes and the number of stress-related groundings will go up leaving bigger and bigger holes in the manning plot.
This will be a significant flight safety risk which is why it is in everyone's interests to make the transition work.
Trying to screw over ex-mil with reduced wages (because they have pensions) will mean the good guys will go for other options leaving the contractor to pick up only those who have no other choices - not trhe best way to ensure a smooth transition retaining high quality SAR experience around the UK is it?
I don't think any of us would have a problem with sitting in the co's seat offshore for 6 months to gain hours on type providing the guarantee of the captaincy at a specific SAR flight thereafter was honoured. That way you satisfy your hours on type requirement, get to know the individuals and retain the SAR experience and enthusiasm you hired them for in the first place.
All that is required is mutual trust and honesty.
Onesquaremetre
I agree wholeheartedly with you...didn't say I thought the Bristows way made sense, just that it is so. They are a Union Shop, don't forget...the day you join is more important than quals.
And remember too they have a LOT of ex-mil SAR guys flying the rigs, with seniority and hours. Who do you think will get the SAR slots?
I reiterate, RAF SAR guys can get a Bristows SAR slot, but they need to leave the RAF yesterday in order to do it. Bristows need to be manned, trained and operationally ready in every sense, BEFORE mil SAR dies. Those still on mil SAR will have well and truly missed the boat.
I agree wholeheartedly with you...didn't say I thought the Bristows way made sense, just that it is so. They are a Union Shop, don't forget...the day you join is more important than quals.
And remember too they have a LOT of ex-mil SAR guys flying the rigs, with seniority and hours. Who do you think will get the SAR slots?
I reiterate, RAF SAR guys can get a Bristows SAR slot, but they need to leave the RAF yesterday in order to do it. Bristows need to be manned, trained and operationally ready in every sense, BEFORE mil SAR dies. Those still on mil SAR will have well and truly missed the boat.
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Crab said - "The only way is forward now to make it as good as it can possibly be for the sake of the 0.1 % of those taxpayers who really will need the best service in the world"
Given that the Uk population is around 62 million, by my reckoning that would mean SAR carried 62,000 patients last year. I never realised it was so dangerous living here...
Given that the Uk population is around 62 million, by my reckoning that would mean SAR carried 62,000 patients last year. I never realised it was so dangerous living here...