2 x Helicopters crash in Berlin
Some work needs to be done on making the main door more rescuer friendly when the aircraft is on its side.
Mickjoebill
Mickjoebill
skadi
Last edited by skadi; 21st Mar 2013 at 22:31.
second Puma
It appears looking at the various photos and videos that the first Puma landed to the left, the 155 in the middle and was on the ground when the second Puma landed onto or too close to the 155.
Amazing that not more were injured from flying debris.
Amazing that not more were injured from flying debris.
Seconds before the accident, the EC 155 safe on ground but death is behind and approaching. The second Super Puma landed direct into the EC155 still running at the ground. The marshaller with incredible luck and seconds later the first encouraged rescuer. Brave guy.
Last edited by tecpilot; 22nd Mar 2013 at 08:30.
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Yes, very brave guy and very fortunate as well that the debris did not take him out.
A credit to the service.
However, I cannot help but wonder, having done some incident and accident investigation work, if this accident did not originate on the planning board.
Did anybody discuss wx minima for an EXCERCISE? What was the rush and the operational need here?
What was the experience level of the crews involved and were they up to this combination of task and circumstances?
Unlike wars, football matches can and have been cancelled..so can excercises.
A credit to the service.
However, I cannot help but wonder, having done some incident and accident investigation work, if this accident did not originate on the planning board.
Did anybody discuss wx minima for an EXCERCISE? What was the rush and the operational need here?
What was the experience level of the crews involved and were they up to this combination of task and circumstances?
Unlike wars, football matches can and have been cancelled..so can excercises.
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S76, planning is essential without question but, even with the best planning and crew selection in the world, if the drivers were not familiar with the experience of managing a whiteout, then they were doomed - no matter how experienced they were. (If in fact this was a whiteout).
Whiteouts have gotten the better of some skilled crews over the years.
.
Whiteouts have gotten the better of some skilled crews over the years.
.
Last edited by Anthony Supplebottom; 22nd Mar 2013 at 10:10.
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This is a most unfortunate accident. Does anyone know if the Puma dipped its tail into the 155's MR? I imagine this could easily be done with the onset of whiteout conditions making it harder to judge ground proximity and distance traversed once the reference to the other machine dissappeared behind the pilot.
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AS:
My point exactly.
The experience levels of the crews should be known to those running the excercise. If (for argument's sake let's assume a whiteout as the most probable immediate cause) the crews have no or very little experience in snow ops, there should have been a referee on the sideline cancelling the formation landing in the stadium in blowing snow conditions.
The crews are operating in a situation where they are probably unaware of their limitations in whiteout conditions never having operated in them before, at least with limited room for manoeuvre.
For the sake of the excercise IMO they should have scrapped the formation landings, hold the excercise, reorganise the ground troops to where they could safely restart the next phase and practice formation landings some other day.
Lesson learned would be to ensure a more thorough buildup of experience OR accept the fact that there are limits to what can safely be done when not trying to prevent worse from happening.
Losing valuable people and assets in an excercise simply does not compute. There was no operational necessity here to put people at risk.
My first whiteout was quite an experience and I made sure there was plenty of room to play with without the risk of running into other stuff that would ruin our day.
But an inexperienced pilot may be too optimistic in his expectations of remaining vis until too late. That is why sometimes others with better understanding should pull the plug before the holes in the cheese line up.
but, even with the best planning and crew selection in the world, if the drivers were not familiar with the experience of managing a whiteout, then they were doomed
The experience levels of the crews should be known to those running the excercise. If (for argument's sake let's assume a whiteout as the most probable immediate cause) the crews have no or very little experience in snow ops, there should have been a referee on the sideline cancelling the formation landing in the stadium in blowing snow conditions.
The crews are operating in a situation where they are probably unaware of their limitations in whiteout conditions never having operated in them before, at least with limited room for manoeuvre.
For the sake of the excercise IMO they should have scrapped the formation landings, hold the excercise, reorganise the ground troops to where they could safely restart the next phase and practice formation landings some other day.
Lesson learned would be to ensure a more thorough buildup of experience OR accept the fact that there are limits to what can safely be done when not trying to prevent worse from happening.
Losing valuable people and assets in an excercise simply does not compute. There was no operational necessity here to put people at risk.
My first whiteout was quite an experience and I made sure there was plenty of room to play with without the risk of running into other stuff that would ruin our day.
But an inexperienced pilot may be too optimistic in his expectations of remaining vis until too late. That is why sometimes others with better understanding should pull the plug before the holes in the cheese line up.
Avoid imitations
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S76, planning is essential without question but, even with the best planning and crew selection in the world, if the drivers were not familiar with the experience of managing a whiteout, then they were doomed - no matter how experienced they were. (If in fact this was a whiteout).
Whiteouts have gotten the better of some skilled crews over the years.
Whiteouts have gotten the better of some skilled crews over the years.
Helicopter generated whiteout is always a possibility in winter ops over lying snow and it should always be included in basic planning for winter ops, with contingencies allowed for. It's basic stuff and it's certainly not the first time it's snowed in Germany in recent history. Any experienced pilot should have known about the possibility of whiteout.
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Any experienced pilot should have known about the possibility of whiteout.
Letīs wait for the outcome of the (ongoing) investigation, before we start throwing stones....
But that was also my first thought when i read about this accident....
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ShyTorque - you have in fact validated my comment, unless of course we are to debate on semantics.
The point I am pressing is that without experience in managing whiteout conditions and the incidence of whiteout, no amount of "other" preparation would have protected these crews - a point S76 seems to have clearly understood.
The point I am pressing is that without experience in managing whiteout conditions and the incidence of whiteout, no amount of "other" preparation would have protected these crews - a point S76 seems to have clearly understood.
All the pilots in this mission are highly experienced, full rated and since long years professional pilots. There is no single low-timer between them. All have done thousends of HEMS and police missions and faced a lot of times white out conditions.
But someone made a fatal mistake, we are all humans and humans are known for making mistakes. Thats all to say to this sad day. There is no other reason. A simple human error, may be a verbal mistake, a split second wrong decision and a catastrophic outcome. There is no 100% safety to get in aviation especially not in HEMS or police or military aviation. Pilots are not machines.
White or brown out conditions are dangerous, but helicopters have to operate under such conditions. That makes our job something special. Desk riding it's easier.
But someone made a fatal mistake, we are all humans and humans are known for making mistakes. Thats all to say to this sad day. There is no other reason. A simple human error, may be a verbal mistake, a split second wrong decision and a catastrophic outcome. There is no 100% safety to get in aviation especially not in HEMS or police or military aviation. Pilots are not machines.
White or brown out conditions are dangerous, but helicopters have to operate under such conditions. That makes our job something special. Desk riding it's easier.
Last edited by tecpilot; 22nd Mar 2013 at 14:35.
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@tecpilot:
people are not machines, I grant you that. Which is why we need to mitigate for potential errors.
Errors were obviously made, hence an accident with unfortunately a fatality.
However, even if the crew were very experienced, this was only an excercise. No reason not to stop and think if the situation got very demanding. Go around, fly an orbit, buy some time. When in doubt, chicken out. No use in adding to the casualty score even if it were for real.
Just look at the HEMS threads and how critical everybody seems to get after another fatality. Most words spoken are a lot harsher than in this topic. Simply stating that "100% safety is impossible" does not cut the mustard.
Those at the sharp end may have been unaware of the immediate risk, that is why IN AN EXCERCISE someone should monitor proceedings with solely safety in mind and halt anything that is unsafe.
Landing 3 helicopters in a stadium may be safe in clear weather but in loose snow it is a different story.
FYI I have some time in HEMS and SAR just so you know I am not completely armchair only. I am not bashing the crews but pointing at the overall control of the excercise that I find lacking if it allows an unsafe situation to develop. Seen it before and also with fatal results.
So can we at least take away a lesson about mission safety control from this?
people are not machines, I grant you that. Which is why we need to mitigate for potential errors.
Errors were obviously made, hence an accident with unfortunately a fatality.
However, even if the crew were very experienced, this was only an excercise. No reason not to stop and think if the situation got very demanding. Go around, fly an orbit, buy some time. When in doubt, chicken out. No use in adding to the casualty score even if it were for real.
Just look at the HEMS threads and how critical everybody seems to get after another fatality. Most words spoken are a lot harsher than in this topic. Simply stating that "100% safety is impossible" does not cut the mustard.
Those at the sharp end may have been unaware of the immediate risk, that is why IN AN EXCERCISE someone should monitor proceedings with solely safety in mind and halt anything that is unsafe.
Landing 3 helicopters in a stadium may be safe in clear weather but in loose snow it is a different story.
FYI I have some time in HEMS and SAR just so you know I am not completely armchair only. I am not bashing the crews but pointing at the overall control of the excercise that I find lacking if it allows an unsafe situation to develop. Seen it before and also with fatal results.
So can we at least take away a lesson about mission safety control from this?
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All the pilots in this mission are highly experienced, full rated and since long years professional pilots. There is no single low-timer between them. All have done thousends of HEMS and police missions and faced a lot of times white out conditions
I know how they have been trained, and i know how much "training" they get to keep their currencies...
Otherwise, i would not have brought up this point....
I will wait for the accident report...but i doubt that the pilot crashing into the other chopper was "highly experienced in white out conditions"...
I doubt this pretty much-again, i know some of the pilots flying for the police (and also flying on exercises like this)..
skadi