Clarification of VFR on top
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Far from home, but not far from here
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clarification of VFR on top
Hi All,
As I understand it now that we're under EASA it's no longer possible to fly under IFR rules unless you have an IR and are in an IR aircraft, so if you want to fly on top of cloud you have to follow VFR rules which mean you must be, in the case of a helicopter, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. So has the change to EASA really made any difference to how helicopters can operate in relation to maintaining VMC?
Cheers
Chippy
As I understand it now that we're under EASA it's no longer possible to fly under IFR rules unless you have an IR and are in an IR aircraft, so if you want to fly on top of cloud you have to follow VFR rules which mean you must be, in the case of a helicopter, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. So has the change to EASA really made any difference to how helicopters can operate in relation to maintaining VMC?
Cheers
Chippy
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hassocks, Mid-Sussex
Age: 67
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If a single was running low on fuel and was inbound to Mascot and got stuck on top of the undercast would they be talked down by radar and would they be penalised for getting stuck on top?
Last edited by Grenville Fortescue; 19th Feb 2013 at 19:50.
All VFR (not just VFR on top) is required to have 'in sight of land or water' when below 2000ft agl, it's part of ENR1.2 in our AIP. You could be above a layer of haze, bushfire smoke, local solid cover, etc and comply with all other VFR requirements. An IFR aircraft can climb up through the gloop and then request (and be given) VFR-on-top, as per ENR1.1 p18.
VMC on top? Yep.
VFR on top? Nope, not possible.
And for the pedants out there, it is no longer 'in sight of the surface'. It has been 'with the surface in sight' for a few years now. A subtle but important difference.
VFR on top? Nope, not possible.
And for the pedants out there, it is no longer 'in sight of the surface'. It has been 'with the surface in sight' for a few years now. A subtle but important difference.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The current core rules for VFR below FL100 outside class A airspace in the UK are EITHER (A) 5,000m forward visibility, 1,000ft vertically and 1,500ft horizontally clear of cloud, OR (B) if a helicopter at or below 3000ft amsl, 1,500m forward visibility, clear of cloud and with the surface in sight (my bold).
'With the surface in sight' is defined in UK legislation as
So If you have a low level undercast/fog up to say 1000ft with gin clear skies above, and you fly at 2000ft or above then you're VFR, and even if you fly down to the top of the undercast, then provided you can meet the definition of 'the surface in sight' above, you are still VFR. The pictures earlier in the thread eg. of the O2 poking through the fog IMHO would meet the definition, depending on the direction of flight.
You can use the words 'on top' if you want to qualify your situation although there's no technical reason to do so since those words are not used in UK legislation.
Of course whether it's sensible or legal to do any of the above depends on the ATC service you are receiving, the airspace around you, the equipment in the aircraft, the nature of your flight, your own qualifications, and the plan you have for getting back down.
As far as I know the EASA Single European Rules of the Air are not intending to change these core aspects of the rules.
'With the surface in sight' is defined in UK legislation as
...the flight crew being able to see sufficient surface features or surface illumination to enable the flight crew to maintain the aircraft in the desired attitude without reference to any flight instrument
You can use the words 'on top' if you want to qualify your situation although there's no technical reason to do so since those words are not used in UK legislation.
Of course whether it's sensible or legal to do any of the above depends on the ATC service you are receiving, the airspace around you, the equipment in the aircraft, the nature of your flight, your own qualifications, and the plan you have for getting back down.
As far as I know the EASA Single European Rules of the Air are not intending to change these core aspects of the rules.
Last edited by puntosaurus; 20th Feb 2013 at 06:19.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Visual Flight Rules (VFR) & Chart Information | Airspace Use | Operations and Safety
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/VFR_Guide_2011.pdf
A. Weather minima
VFR flight within Controlled Airspace (Classes C to E Airspace)
At and above FL 100 Below FL 100 At or below 3000ft
8 km flight visibility#
1500m horizontally
from cloud*
1000ft vertically
from cloud*
5 km flight visibility#
1500m horizontally from
cloud*
1000ft vertically from
cloud*
As per below FL
100 .or
Fixed wing aircraft
operating at 140kt or
less: 5 km flight
visibility; Clear of
cloud and in sight of
the surface.
For helicopters: Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
# For the purpose of taking off or landing within a Control Zone, the actual meteorological visibility reported by
ATC shall be taken as the flight visibility. (Rule 26 of the UK Air Navigation Order refers).
There is no Class B Airspace in the UK FIR and Class C only exists above FL195. To accommodate VFR and
military autonomous operations above FL 195 Temporary Reserved Areas (TRAs) have been introduced. TRAs
are notified volumes of airspace within which ATS will be provided in accordance with UK Air Traffic Services
Outside Controlled Airspace (ATSOCAS) rules. The dimensions and activation times of these TRAs are detailed in
the UK AIP ENR 5.2.
VFR flight outside Controlled Airspace (Classes F and G Airspace)
At and above FL 100 Below FL 100 At or below 3000ft
8 km flight visibility
1500m horizontally
from cloud
1000ft vertically
from cloud*
5 km flight visibility
1500m horizontally from
cloud
1000ft vertically from
cloud
As per below FL
100 .or .
Fixed wing aircraft: 5
km flight visibility;
Clear of cloud and in
sight of the surface.
For fixed wing aircraft
operating at 140kt or
less: 1500 m flight
visibility; Clear of
cloud and in sight of
the surface.
For helicopters operating at a speed which, having regard to the visibility, is reasonable:
Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/VFR_Guide_2011.pdf
A. Weather minima
VFR flight within Controlled Airspace (Classes C to E Airspace)
At and above FL 100 Below FL 100 At or below 3000ft
8 km flight visibility#
1500m horizontally
from cloud*
1000ft vertically
from cloud*
5 km flight visibility#
1500m horizontally from
cloud*
1000ft vertically from
cloud*
As per below FL
100 .or
Fixed wing aircraft
operating at 140kt or
less: 5 km flight
visibility; Clear of
cloud and in sight of
the surface.
For helicopters: Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
# For the purpose of taking off or landing within a Control Zone, the actual meteorological visibility reported by
ATC shall be taken as the flight visibility. (Rule 26 of the UK Air Navigation Order refers).
There is no Class B Airspace in the UK FIR and Class C only exists above FL195. To accommodate VFR and
military autonomous operations above FL 195 Temporary Reserved Areas (TRAs) have been introduced. TRAs
are notified volumes of airspace within which ATS will be provided in accordance with UK Air Traffic Services
Outside Controlled Airspace (ATSOCAS) rules. The dimensions and activation times of these TRAs are detailed in
the UK AIP ENR 5.2.
VFR flight outside Controlled Airspace (Classes F and G Airspace)
At and above FL 100 Below FL 100 At or below 3000ft
8 km flight visibility
1500m horizontally
from cloud
1000ft vertically
from cloud*
5 km flight visibility
1500m horizontally from
cloud
1000ft vertically from
cloud
As per below FL
100 .or .
Fixed wing aircraft: 5
km flight visibility;
Clear of cloud and in
sight of the surface.
For fixed wing aircraft
operating at 140kt or
less: 1500 m flight
visibility; Clear of
cloud and in sight of
the surface.
For helicopters operating at a speed which, having regard to the visibility, is reasonable:
Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Last edited by heli7; 20th Feb 2013 at 07:52.
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hassocks, Mid-Sussex
Age: 67
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John - Thanks for the reply. Sorry, I know it seems like a bit of a trick question.
Can anyone disclose the autorotation procedure applicable to managing an engine failure if flying above an 8/8 undercast the base of which is say 300ft agl?
Can anyone disclose the autorotation procedure applicable to managing an engine failure if flying above an 8/8 undercast the base of which is say 300ft agl?
And ref puntosauraus' post, I seem to recall that the definition was changed explicitly to prevent items sticking up through low cloud (ie the O2) being defined as the surface. In other words, you can't just be visual with bits of the surface sticking up through the layer (such as a hill or a tower in the distance) but in order to be VFR, you need to be visual with the surface itself.
But I might just be splitting hairs on this point.
Would I want to be VMC on top in a single engine helicopter? Nope, not if I can't see what I will have to auto down in/onto in the event of everything going quiet.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/2009010...VFRPilotA5.pdf
Aircraft (except helicopters) at 140KIAS or less: clear of cloud with the surface in sight in a flight
visibility of at least 1500 metres. Helicopters at a speed which, having regard to the visibilty is
reasonable: clear of cloud with the surface in sight in a flight visibilty of at least 1500 metres.
Copyright Civil Aviation Authority 2008 and reproduced with their permission AC&D 50/2008 ATS FAQ(A5) 18 DEC 08
Aircraft (except helicopters) at 140KIAS or less: clear of cloud with the surface in sight in a flight
visibility of at least 1500 metres. Helicopters at a speed which, having regard to the visibilty is
reasonable: clear of cloud with the surface in sight in a flight visibilty of at least 1500 metres.
Copyright Civil Aviation Authority 2008 and reproduced with their permission AC&D 50/2008 ATS FAQ(A5) 18 DEC 08
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone disclose the autorotation procedure applicable to managing an engine failure if flying above an 8/8 undercast the base of which is say 300ft agl?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Penzance
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
heli7,
Quoting from the VFR guide is not complete: you should refer to UK AIP ENR1.2 Visual Flight Rules, which adds the caveat at 3000 ft amsl or below and flying at 140 KIAS or less: or similar to the requirement Clear of Cloud and with the surface in sight........
It follows by default that when above 3000ft amsl it is not a requirement to be with the surface in sight, and only compliance with Table 1 is needed: much the same as already postulated by puntosaurus
Grenville,
IFR auto is usually a fixed speed (~70kias) steady state auto into wind, with a flare as usual at the normal height for the aircraft type or alternatively a 10 degree nose up at 150' radalt and a pitch pull if still IFR to the surface. Pot luck where you land, though
Quoting from the VFR guide is not complete: you should refer to UK AIP ENR1.2 Visual Flight Rules, which adds the caveat at 3000 ft amsl or below and flying at 140 KIAS or less: or similar to the requirement Clear of Cloud and with the surface in sight........
It follows by default that when above 3000ft amsl it is not a requirement to be with the surface in sight, and only compliance with Table 1 is needed: much the same as already postulated by puntosaurus
Grenville,
IFR auto is usually a fixed speed (~70kias) steady state auto into wind, with a flare as usual at the normal height for the aircraft type or alternatively a 10 degree nose up at 150' radalt and a pitch pull if still IFR to the surface. Pot luck where you land, though
heli7,
The text that you've quoted in your first post (#11) is not from the 2011 VFR Guide, which you have linked to in the post.
It is from the earlier document (and so is no longer current).
The text that you've quoted in your first post (#11) is not from the 2011 VFR Guide, which you have linked to in the post.
It is from the earlier document (and so is no longer current).
Nope. You don't seem to understand the difference between 'in sight of the surface' (old) and 'with the surface in sight' (new).
Like I said above, a subtle but important difference.
Like I said above, a subtle but important difference.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Penzance
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
heli7,
Have a look at the first paragraph of CAA Visual Flight Rules (VFR) & Chart Information:Information for airspace users which is there to ensure you realise that the VFR Guide is just that: a guide.
Then read ENR 1.2 
Have a look at the first paragraph of CAA Visual Flight Rules (VFR) & Chart Information:Information for airspace users which is there to ensure you realise that the VFR Guide is just that: a guide.
This guidance material is intended for Pilots of VFR flights within UK Airspace below FL 195 and combines useful information from numerous sources. It is used on the understanding that it does not represent a substitute for the more comprehensive information contained in the UK AIP which should always be regarded as the authoritative source.