SA 315B Lama
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: around and about
Age: 71
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Lamas in UK
MD, Thank you VERY much indeed for the info; could make a huge difference to courses in UK 
. My (limited) research was confined to the Midlands area looking for remnants from the old Dollar operation.
Pm me with the detail/people I should get in touch with? Many thanks and I owe you some Italian wine
- VFR
. My (limited) research was confined to the Midlands area looking for remnants from the old Dollar operation. Pm me with the detail/people I should get in touch with? Many thanks and I owe you some Italian wine
- VFR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: East of 20° E
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some top responses and very interesting reading - thanks guys.
What will happen to Lama owners then?
In Tanzania Viking Helicopters had a Lama in about 1980 and Evergreen have had them in West Africa but also in Ethiopia and Sudan as far as I know when they were fitted with the particle filter.
There are a couple currently in the Congo and recently there was an Italian registered one in Kenya.
Would like to know how much longer they will last. If you buy one now will it only be allowed to fly until 2020?
In early-2010 Eurocopter announced that the Lama and the Alouette III will be supported until the end of the decade.. 2020 that is. The type certificate is said to be revoked that year.
In Tanzania Viking Helicopters had a Lama in about 1980 and Evergreen have had them in West Africa but also in Ethiopia and Sudan as far as I know when they were fitted with the particle filter.
There are a couple currently in the Congo and recently there was an Italian registered one in Kenya.
Would like to know how much longer they will last. If you buy one now will it only be allowed to fly until 2020?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
vfr440, thanks for additional infos about your training schedule.
Regarding type training and type examination, please check GM.66.A.45 for Group 2 aircraft. That's all. Nobody stops you to complete a full type training but, as regulation alleviates the requirements for non complex machines, that's helping our job.
Regulators amongst Europe are, as you say, unfortunately not aligned and it's always fair competition between operators that's made difficult. I've experience with Swiss UFAC, Italian ECAC, UK CAA amongst the others and the difference between them are quite evident. But, on my opinion, regulation is regulation and operators must fight to have it applied commonly.
Regarding wine, let's have a taste of Franciacorta Brut then tell me something about. Ciao
Regarding type training and type examination, please check GM.66.A.45 for Group 2 aircraft. That's all. Nobody stops you to complete a full type training but, as regulation alleviates the requirements for non complex machines, that's helping our job.
Regulators amongst Europe are, as you say, unfortunately not aligned and it's always fair competition between operators that's made difficult. I've experience with Swiss UFAC, Italian ECAC, UK CAA amongst the others and the difference between them are quite evident. But, on my opinion, regulation is regulation and operators must fight to have it applied commonly.
Regarding wine, let's have a taste of Franciacorta Brut then tell me something about. Ciao
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: around and about
Age: 71
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Training (and the occasional glass of wine)
Soloviev -
Now there's a good idea
Absolutely understand and agree the GM and several other points you make. Next time we (all) in EASA gain a 'level playing-field' it will be a first
This wasn't designed to be a treatise on EASA and NAAs, nor was it marketing either. Just that if faced with an intransigent Regulatory Authority, anywhere in the world, if the buzz words "Part 147 course" eases the passage to Certifying staff authorisation, we are only too pleased to help. And we are MILES cheaper than an OEM, since we have less overheads and we are "of" the industry (both principals are Part 66 LAEs and occasionally practising ones since it is less frustrating
)
BTW the Lama was an add-on to the current portfolio of all the EC and Bell singles and twins, together with the engines; it is not the lead-machine on our books though personally I wish it was (Lama people are rather special people - and they drink wine too, well most of them do) PM me for details if you are interested.
African Eagle - in 2020. This may be an interesting scenario. Assuming that spares can be acquired prior to the cut-off date, without doubt the aircraft can be maintained to an airworthy standard BUT.......... if they no longer have someone underwriting the Type Certificate, I really suspect they would not be allowed to operate CAT. Private, yes, CAT no. What does anyone else think? They are NOT Public transport aircraft anyway (really), so maybe a concession could be given for Aerial Work as a category - at which they excel - but it is a good question, since what is decided by EASA may well have a domino effect throughout the global regulatory authorities.
Look forward to any comments fielded, thank you in advance -VFR
Now there's a good idea
Absolutely understand and agree the GM and several other points you make. Next time we (all) in EASA gain a 'level playing-field' it will be a first
This wasn't designed to be a treatise on EASA and NAAs, nor was it marketing either. Just that if faced with an intransigent Regulatory Authority, anywhere in the world, if the buzz words "Part 147 course" eases the passage to Certifying staff authorisation, we are only too pleased to help. And we are MILES cheaper than an OEM, since we have less overheads and we are "of" the industry (both principals are Part 66 LAEs and occasionally practising ones since it is less frustrating
)BTW the Lama was an add-on to the current portfolio of all the EC and Bell singles and twins, together with the engines; it is not the lead-machine on our books though personally I wish it was (Lama people are rather special people - and they drink wine too, well most of them do) PM me for details if you are interested.
African Eagle - in 2020. This may be an interesting scenario. Assuming that spares can be acquired prior to the cut-off date, without doubt the aircraft can be maintained to an airworthy standard BUT.......... if they no longer have someone underwriting the Type Certificate, I really suspect they would not be allowed to operate CAT. Private, yes, CAT no. What does anyone else think? They are NOT Public transport aircraft anyway (really), so maybe a concession could be given for Aerial Work as a category - at which they excel - but it is a good question, since what is decided by EASA may well have a domino effect throughout the global regulatory authorities.
Look forward to any comments fielded, thank you in advance -VFR
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What will happen to Lama owners then?
Here are some of the highlights that were presented by Eurocopter at the Alouette seminar on December 2nd, 2010:
60% of the Alouettes and 50% of the Lamas are without customer data inputs since more than 4 years, making it difficult for EC to forecast customer needs.
Alouette II: 1326 aircraft produced until 1975
Alouette III: 1437 aircraft produced until 1985
Lama: 447 aircraft produced until 1985
I guess they are not including the license built helicopters?
A number of issues leading to the retirement of the fleet, with one of the main reasons being loss of technical knowledge (EC & vendors), high effort to maintain erratic spares production & R&O capacities, obsolescence affecting majority of low rotation items. Another aspect is that the reindustrialization or redesign is getting more &and more complex:
- Old technologies
- Lack of equipment / parts specifications to reallocate
- Development / industrialization processes and Certifications basis far more demanding today
- EC and Major suppliers tendency to allocate in priority design resources to new developments increased by lack of forecasts on Alouette needs
- Increase of sustaining costs & lead-time
- Focus on high rotation parts / equipments
- EC price / availability parts database not kept permanently updated (erratic parts, unforeseen obsolescence), which leads to a reduced spare part catalogue.
Eurocopter says that the type certificate will be supported until the end of the decade, with the EC support scope reduced step by step. Degradation in the following order: Blades/Equipments, MRO, New Spares and untimately TC revocation. Alouette II will be retired prior to Lama/Alouette III (2018 vs. 2020).
Fleet breakdown per end of 2009:
Europe: 60 Alouette II, 200 Alouette III, 110 Lama
America: < 100 aircraft
Africa: < 100 aircraft
Asia: < 200 aircraft
Fleet leaders 2009:
a/c type - s/n - status - last info date - flight hrs end 2009 - region
SA 316 - 2351 - In service - 10/31/1988 - 29.100 - Europe
SA 315 - 2322 - In service - 12/31/2000 - 26.900 - South Africa
SA 316 - 1923 - In service - 03/31/1999 - 26.500 - Europe
SA 315 - 0004 - In service - 08/31/2005 - 24.500 - Europe
SA 3160 - 1667 - In service - 06/30/1997 - 23.200 - Asia
SA 316 - 1762 - In service - 06/1/2002 - 22.000 - Europe
SA 315 - 0006 - In service - 11/3/2009 - 21.700 - North America
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: East of 20° E
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Torque and temp, thanks for this info. Sounds a bit sad.
I'm guessing a company could buy the type certificate from EC and maybe contract HAL to provide the support?
Is that a possibility do you think?
I'm guessing a company could buy the type certificate from EC and maybe contract HAL to provide the support?
Is that a possibility do you think?
Last edited by African Eagle; 30th Jan 2013 at 17:51.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is that a possibility do you think?
Last edited by Torque and temp; 30th Jan 2013 at 18:11.
Sounds a bit sad.
They have been such a constant feature of rotary-wing aviation here - iconic in fact!
Evergreen had had them in West Africa but also in Ethiopia and Sudan as far as I know when they were fitted with the particle filter.
Evergreen SA315B Lama N55963 (wearing sand filters) at Portland's Hillsboro Airport
Haihio: Grazie, è un bellissimo posto quello dove ti trovi. Saluti da Milano (anche se non sono lì spesso). Bellissimi video!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: around and about
Age: 71
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
TC validation
Eric,
Good suggestion, however................... is not the FAA Type Cert dependent upon EC (in this instance) accepting responsibility for the airworthy standard? Certainly that was the case in UK, since a Regulatory Authority is hardly in a position to legally direct maintenance and airworthiness activities on an aircraft for which they have no direct input to the actual design engineering? I am thinking here primarily of the product liability aspect so often exercised within USA
Before EASA, for UK, CAA would assess an aircraft and its National TC; then if it met the standard of BCAR (with possibly the addition of the infamous 'Special Conditions') a UK TC would be granted.I think the same principal would apply, now, to FAA given the rationalisation of the spat over reciprococity and the validation of the EASA/FAA bi-lateral.
But I may well be wrong, guidance appreciated - VFR
Good suggestion, however................... is not the FAA Type Cert dependent upon EC (in this instance) accepting responsibility for the airworthy standard? Certainly that was the case in UK, since a Regulatory Authority is hardly in a position to legally direct maintenance and airworthiness activities on an aircraft for which they have no direct input to the actual design engineering? I am thinking here primarily of the product liability aspect so often exercised within USA
Before EASA, for UK, CAA would assess an aircraft and its National TC; then if it met the standard of BCAR (with possibly the addition of the infamous 'Special Conditions') a UK TC would be granted.I think the same principal would apply, now, to FAA given the rationalisation of the spat over reciprococity and the validation of the EASA/FAA bi-lateral.
But I may well be wrong, guidance appreciated - VFR
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: India
Age: 48
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They are there in larger numners
Guess I'm late in posting in this forum. A couple of more than what has been spoken in this forum about the numbers of LAMA are still flying in Indian subcontinent. I do agree that it may not be so by the end of this decade but at present they do have the numbers.
VFR 440
I know what you are saying but the Bristol Brittania and DeHavilland Comet both have FAA type certificates as does the Djinn with Sud Aviation stated as the holder. The Americans have their own way of doing things so..........
I was at the Eurocopter operators conference just over two years ago when they announced that they were intending to stop blade production.
Did not go down well. One of the operators pilots was in the same hotel as us and took the time to explain where the Lama beats the Squirrel hands down in a number of areas.
As early as the mid-eighties the Lama was an embarrassment to Aerospat.
We were asked what we would like to see at the factory, unanimous we all wanted to see where they built the Lama's. They refused point blank to show us. We had more chance at getting in to one of the top secret areas.
I think I also owe you an email re Lama tech instructors from before christmas. Not forgotten just in the to do list.
ericferret
I know what you are saying but the Bristol Brittania and DeHavilland Comet both have FAA type certificates as does the Djinn with Sud Aviation stated as the holder. The Americans have their own way of doing things so..........
I was at the Eurocopter operators conference just over two years ago when they announced that they were intending to stop blade production.
Did not go down well. One of the operators pilots was in the same hotel as us and took the time to explain where the Lama beats the Squirrel hands down in a number of areas.
As early as the mid-eighties the Lama was an embarrassment to Aerospat.
We were asked what we would like to see at the factory, unanimous we all wanted to see where they built the Lama's. They refused point blank to show us. We had more chance at getting in to one of the top secret areas.
I think I also owe you an email re Lama tech instructors from before christmas. Not forgotten just in the to do list.
ericferret
Last edited by ericferret; 31st Jan 2013 at 15:28.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: East of 20° E
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
peeush, are these Lama or Cheetah?
Also, do you know if when EC pull the type certificate for the Lama whether this will affect Cheetah production also? Are they licenced under the same TC?
Also, do you know if when EC pull the type certificate for the Lama whether this will affect Cheetah production also? Are they licenced under the same TC?
Nice video of a Lama in Sweden from our friend Tat in the RATW thread :
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/243...ml#post7663057
.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/243...ml#post7663057
.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: east sussex
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
al2
hi
I have 3 x al2's
1 x 313b and 2 x 318c's
are these any good for your courses
they are based in Eastbourne, but often in Alcester so could drop in when needed - do you have hangerage ?
ian
I have 3 x al2's
1 x 313b and 2 x 318c's
are these any good for your courses
they are based in Eastbourne, but often in Alcester so could drop in when needed - do you have hangerage ?
ian
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: around and about
Age: 71
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Al 2 in UK!
Ian,
A very kind offer, which I'd be pleased to explore if something should come up in the future, thank you very much.
Er..... no, no hangarage immediately adjacent, but I can look into that for 'near by'.
Offer much appreciated - VFR
A very kind offer, which I'd be pleased to explore if something should come up in the future, thank you very much.
Er..... no, no hangarage immediately adjacent, but I can look into that for 'near by'.
Offer much appreciated - VFR
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
N reg might be an answer for some as the FAA have their own type certificate.
Good suggestion, however................... is not the FAA Type Cert dependent upon EC (in this instance) accepting responsibility for the airworthy standard?
The Americans have their own way of doing things so..........
Last edited by Torque and temp; 4th Feb 2013 at 18:01.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Oregon, US
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heliservices HK
Heliservices in Hong Kong has several SA 315s and possibly a few other varients. Last I was there I believe they had 6 airframes 3 of which were operational.
Heliservices | SA 315B LAMA
Heliservices | SA 315B LAMA
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: East of 20° E
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lama not extinct (yet)
The Indian Army has placed a $77 million order with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) for 20 Cheetal helicopters, a re-engined variant of the AerospatialeSA316B Lama that was built under license in India as the Cheetah. The order is a short-term measure for logistics support to the Indian troops on the Siachen Glacier because of delays to the twice-bid competition for 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters (RSH). The future of that requirementis uncertain.
HAL has committed to “supply 20 Cheetals over the next four years besides providing training to its pilots and technical crew,” the company said in a statement. It has already delivered nine Cheetals from the 10-aircraft order the Indian Air Force placed as long ago as 2006, a HALofficial told AIN. The company is building Cheetals at a rate of one every 16 months.
The new version is powered by a TurbomecaTM333 2M2engine. “Cheetal is just a lifeline. It is needed urgently because the troops are in a rarified atmosphere and casualties have to be evacuated as fast as possible,” an army official told AIN.
But with the production of aluminum rotor blades now ended in France by Eurocopter and the TM333 engine also now out of production, there is concern about the supply chain for the Cheetal. With HAL insisting on paying only the price for these items that was charged when they were in full production, a delay in deliveries is inevitable, an MoD official told AIN.
The Cheetal can operate at an altitude of up to almost 23,000 feet and has a range of 346 nm with an endurance of three and a half hours. The TM333 2M2 is fitted with a full authority digital engine control system (Fadec) and an electronic backup control box system that automatically takes over engine control in the event of a Fadec failure, said HAL.
The company describes the Cheetal as “a multirole helicopter, best suited for missions such as personnel transport, casualty evacuation, reconnaissance and aerial survey, logistic air support, rescue operations and underslungloads.”
HAL has committed to “supply 20 Cheetals over the next four years besides providing training to its pilots and technical crew,” the company said in a statement. It has already delivered nine Cheetals from the 10-aircraft order the Indian Air Force placed as long ago as 2006, a HALofficial told AIN. The company is building Cheetals at a rate of one every 16 months.
The new version is powered by a TurbomecaTM333 2M2engine. “Cheetal is just a lifeline. It is needed urgently because the troops are in a rarified atmosphere and casualties have to be evacuated as fast as possible,” an army official told AIN.
But with the production of aluminum rotor blades now ended in France by Eurocopter and the TM333 engine also now out of production, there is concern about the supply chain for the Cheetal. With HAL insisting on paying only the price for these items that was charged when they were in full production, a delay in deliveries is inevitable, an MoD official told AIN.
The Cheetal can operate at an altitude of up to almost 23,000 feet and has a range of 346 nm with an endurance of three and a half hours. The TM333 2M2 is fitted with a full authority digital engine control system (Fadec) and an electronic backup control box system that automatically takes over engine control in the event of a Fadec failure, said HAL.
The company describes the Cheetal as “a multirole helicopter, best suited for missions such as personnel transport, casualty evacuation, reconnaissance and aerial survey, logistic air support, rescue operations and underslungloads.”
I feel really sorry for those Indian troops caught up in that rarified atmosphere!
