New money - new tricks
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Good for you, JohnR81.
"If in doubt, chicken out" is a good way to keep everyone safe.
The problem comes when people either don't recognise their personal limits or press on beyond them hoping everything will be alright.
"If in doubt, chicken out" is a good way to keep everyone safe.
The problem comes when people either don't recognise their personal limits or press on beyond them hoping everything will be alright.
Shy ... I also agree with what you say . I have always wondered what I would have done during my first say 2-300 hrs if left to my own devices 
I took it for granted that I always had people to ask advice from . I planned to do jobs and trips that I was then later told not to do ...another pilot would do them maybe with me or they were just binned . I was not aware they were above my skill level or just too risky re wx etc Why does your new licence not come as a probationary licence . You get clearance from a CP or school to do any off airfield landings / confined areas etc and you are not allowed to fly into known poor viz or high winds etc When you have proved that you can do 100 hrs or so under this umbrella you are only then let loose . If you break a rule you loose your licence until you have done more training 
( I also believe that new generation cheap autopilots and IMC ratings on singles would also save lives but that's another story ....)
I took it for granted that I always had people to ask advice from . I planned to do jobs and trips that I was then later told not to do ...another pilot would do them maybe with me or they were just binned . I was not aware they were above my skill level or just too risky re wx etc Why does your new licence not come as a probationary licence . You get clearance from a CP or school to do any off airfield landings / confined areas etc and you are not allowed to fly into known poor viz or high winds etc When you have proved that you can do 100 hrs or so under this umbrella you are only then let loose . If you break a rule you loose your licence until you have done more training ( I also believe that new generation cheap autopilots and IMC ratings on singles would also save lives but that's another story ....)
Last edited by nigelh; 12th Jan 2013 at 14:30.
Avoid imitations
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Nigelh, that's one advantage of the military training system, at least certainly under the RAF system where I earned my wings. We were definitely left in no doubt that we were a mere "probationer" (limited combat ready) until we had passed a series of tests after gaining some experience on the squadron. Until then you are mentored very closely.
That was after basic fixed jet training (everyone had to do that, no direct entry to helicopters then), rotary basic training, advanced rotary training, an operational conversion unit on type and finally a series of squadron acceptance checks leading to combat ready status. If you didn't make combat ready status, normally within nine months of joining a squadron, you were given the "chop" and gave your wings back if you re-roled. Even when combat ready then there were more qualifications to gain, not everyone gained them all.
It seems onerous even looking back, but as a father I can see it was for good reason. The thought of my sons flashing around single pilot at low level in a publicly owned, 7 tonne helicopter, with an underslung load, at the age I was doing just that does make me shudder a bit.
That was after basic fixed jet training (everyone had to do that, no direct entry to helicopters then), rotary basic training, advanced rotary training, an operational conversion unit on type and finally a series of squadron acceptance checks leading to combat ready status. If you didn't make combat ready status, normally within nine months of joining a squadron, you were given the "chop" and gave your wings back if you re-roled. Even when combat ready then there were more qualifications to gain, not everyone gained them all.
It seems onerous even looking back, but as a father I can see it was for good reason. The thought of my sons flashing around single pilot at low level in a publicly owned, 7 tonne helicopter, with an underslung load, at the age I was doing just that does make me shudder a bit.
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John R81,
As usual I agree with you.
May I make the point that it does not follow that a successful businessman cannot make a good pilot. Indeed, I think that a good pilot needs be to be smart person, and it follows that a successful business is (probably) that.
As an Aussie pilot with his own machine, I fly 300-400 hours per year, WAY more than most commercial pilots I know. And most of that is not the 30 minute tourist trips I see the guys at the airport doing day after day. I recently flew to Tasmania and back - 6.5 hours each way and in Tassie the weather changes every 5 minutes (or so it seems). Sun, rain, snow, hail, wind, fog, low cloud etc...and then play that all again !
I also point to my friend Dick Smith, who is a very successful Aussie businessman and a great pilot (aviator ?)...he managed to be successful in business and break a whole bunch of flying records.
All the best,
Arrrj
PS - currently in Spain...either no one has a heli here, or they can't afford to run them ? All I have seen is a EC135 Police machine and only for a few minutes a day.
As usual I agree with you.
May I make the point that it does not follow that a successful businessman cannot make a good pilot. Indeed, I think that a good pilot needs be to be smart person, and it follows that a successful business is (probably) that.
As an Aussie pilot with his own machine, I fly 300-400 hours per year, WAY more than most commercial pilots I know. And most of that is not the 30 minute tourist trips I see the guys at the airport doing day after day. I recently flew to Tasmania and back - 6.5 hours each way and in Tassie the weather changes every 5 minutes (or so it seems). Sun, rain, snow, hail, wind, fog, low cloud etc...and then play that all again !
I also point to my friend Dick Smith, who is a very successful Aussie businessman and a great pilot (aviator ?)...he managed to be successful in business and break a whole bunch of flying records.
All the best,
Arrrj
PS - currently in Spain...either no one has a heli here, or they can't afford to run them ? All I have seen is a EC135 Police machine and only for a few minutes a day.
Spain is short of cash and the companies sell their silverware by the dozens.
Their hourly rates are ridiciulously high to begin with.
Just ferried a spanish twin through the Sahara to its new owner.
Their hourly rates are ridiciulously high to begin with.
Just ferried a spanish twin through the Sahara to its new owner.
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Amen to what Non PC plod has to say
I have similar experience and without wishing to cast aspersions about 'self-improvers' or 'rich kids and their heli-toys' I have observed a certain correlation between competence levels and the method by which the individual came to the industry. Generally those that have been through an effective screening or selection process fair better than those that have not. In particular those that are 'self selected' courtesy of having the money to buy the courses can be extremely variable. Some, because they not only have the innate skills but are strongly motivated, are exceptional. Others have defied gravity (and the system) by being where they are today.
Unless and until the commercial world devises a competency-based training and testing regime this will continue. Competency will be infinitely variable and our accident rates will resist all attempts at reduction.
G.
Unless and until the commercial world devises a competency-based training and testing regime this will continue. Competency will be infinitely variable and our accident rates will resist all attempts at reduction.
G.
Think the biggest problem is the whole world of training. Normally the pupil is taught by a young inexperienced instructor being paid diddly squat who wouldnt say boo to a goose as he despeatatly wants to keep his job! So any " rich sucessfull businessmen" is used to pushing people to get their way
Really people should be taught by the top end of the helicopter world who are quite happy to say NO
In a former life I was a climbing instructor, I had to prove the experience level as well as exams etc etc and had to be pretty well up there in experience as well as sheer qualifications. To become a French Ski instructor you have to do so many years and numerous exams. Personally we have it the wrong way round, things wont change
TC over to you or have I jumped in with both feet again
Really people should be taught by the top end of the helicopter world who are quite happy to say NO
In a former life I was a climbing instructor, I had to prove the experience level as well as exams etc etc and had to be pretty well up there in experience as well as sheer qualifications. To become a French Ski instructor you have to do so many years and numerous exams. Personally we have it the wrong way round, things wont change
TC over to you or have I jumped in with both feet again
Is the training so very different? I think the PPL, CPL, ATPL and IR,s are the same exams and skills test however you arrive at them aren't they. Doesn't matter if you are rich or poor (although at £3-400 per hour poor is a relative term).
What people do once they have their licence is down to the individual but messing around is not a civvy or rich civvy exclusive club.
What people do once they have their licence is down to the individual but messing around is not a civvy or rich civvy exclusive club.
As a old low hour pilot, I would rather be told & have been, not good enough more training required.
That I was being taught by someone who has only the same number of hours as I now have is scary.
I realise there are people who are natural pilot, younger people pick up motor skills faster than us old farts but youth thinks it is invincible, I had close calls with cars, bikes, sailing. I wanted to be taught by someone with in depth skills, not 4\5 lessons in front of me, helicopter training I feel is geared incorrectly, more emphasis on off airfield operation, + single pilot CRM
TC
What is classed as old money
Mine at 70+ who has worked & still is running his own business or a person who won the lotto or again someone who saves to fly
That I was being taught by someone who has only the same number of hours as I now have is scary.
I realise there are people who are natural pilot, younger people pick up motor skills faster than us old farts but youth thinks it is invincible, I had close calls with cars, bikes, sailing. I wanted to be taught by someone with in depth skills, not 4\5 lessons in front of me, helicopter training I feel is geared incorrectly, more emphasis on off airfield operation, + single pilot CRM
TC
What is classed as old money
Mine at 70+ who has worked & still is running his own business or a person who won the lotto or again someone who saves to fly
Last edited by 500e; 13th Jan 2013 at 21:14.
Hovering AND talking
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Originally Posted by krypton john
If you want to pick a safe helicopter pilot from one of the professions go with one of the dull types like accountants!
Yep, we ain't, by our nature, risk-takers. 
Probably why we have such a bad reputation 
Originally Posted by 500e
That I was being taught by someone who has only the same number of hours as I now have is scary.
Cheers
Whirls
Thread Starter
500e: By 'old money' I mean people who have inherited their cash/estate from their well established country pile and family connections.
New money: Footballers/Lotto winners/hedge fund managers/bank robbers/ world champion rallye drivers/cottage industry cake manufacturers/forgers.
This phenomena doesn't happen in the USA: they are all New money
Whirly: HNY matey good to see you around and about Are you new money yet?
Hughes500: It's not the level or depth of instruction - it's the individual being taught. Some of these people are immune to criticism or the rules. They are above this now that they have sufficient drinking vouchers to last a lifetime.
They see bureaucracy as a swear word.
New money: Footballers/Lotto winners/hedge fund managers/bank robbers/ world champion rallye drivers/cottage industry cake manufacturers/forgers.
This phenomena doesn't happen in the USA: they are all New money
Whirly: HNY matey good to see you around and about
Are you new money yet?Hughes500: It's not the level or depth of instruction - it's the individual being taught. Some of these people are immune to criticism or the rules. They are above this now that they have sufficient drinking vouchers to last a lifetime.
They see bureaucracy as a swear word.
Avoid imitations
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But they seem to be a retiring breed ... and I don't mean Shy!
Rich or poor, Civ or Mil.... 5 mins on YouTube.
Even experienced Mil pilots can err... find the YouTUbe yourselves but it isn't pretty..
The Aviationist » NH90 crash
Edited as my linking skills suck
Even experienced Mil pilots can err... find the YouTUbe yourselves but it isn't pretty..
The Aviationist » NH90 crash
Edited as my linking skills suck
Last edited by Pittsextra; 14th Jan 2013 at 19:26.
TC
What i didnt put over very well ( my apologies ) is the older more experienced instructor is more likely to put new money in place, where as a new guy having just got on the 1 st rung of the ladder isnt.
What i didnt put over very well ( my apologies ) is the older more experienced instructor is more likely to put new money in place, where as a new guy having just got on the 1 st rung of the ladder isnt.
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Originally Posted by TC
Are you new money yet?
It's not the level or depth of instruction - it's the individual being taught. Some of these people are immune to criticism or the rules.
Cheers
Whirls
And yes, I do think bureacracy is a swear word but maybe from a different stance
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I can only comment on my experience of motorsport types and Colin's sad demise.
Professional motorsport drivers consider the 'limit' to be the place to be at all times. The Limit is a grey area in motorsport and one of the things that endeared Colin to his fans was his willingness to be 'over' the limit a lot of the time. Statisticians will argue you that he'd have been world champion more than once, had he not had this approach.
The Limit can be exceeded in motorsport regularly, the consequences are 'A Moment' or 'An Off'. Rarely fatal, though it could well result in personal injury and significant machinery damage. They consider this an occupational hazard.
Place that mentality in the pilots seat of a helicopter, where there's no real grey area, just a big black line between life and death, and you have a big problem, sadly.
"I thought I could take it flat" is something often uttered in post crash interviews in motorsport.
Possibly one of motorsport's best known helicopter pilots is Prodrive's Dave Richards, previously co-driver to Ari Vatanen.
Dave Richards used to be an accountant....
Edit - I've not seen that Norwegian Koala vidoe in ages. I thought it had been pulled off YouTube by the aircraft operator?
Professional motorsport drivers consider the 'limit' to be the place to be at all times. The Limit is a grey area in motorsport and one of the things that endeared Colin to his fans was his willingness to be 'over' the limit a lot of the time. Statisticians will argue you that he'd have been world champion more than once, had he not had this approach.
The Limit can be exceeded in motorsport regularly, the consequences are 'A Moment' or 'An Off'. Rarely fatal, though it could well result in personal injury and significant machinery damage. They consider this an occupational hazard.
Place that mentality in the pilots seat of a helicopter, where there's no real grey area, just a big black line between life and death, and you have a big problem, sadly.
"I thought I could take it flat" is something often uttered in post crash interviews in motorsport.
Possibly one of motorsport's best known helicopter pilots is Prodrive's Dave Richards, previously co-driver to Ari Vatanen.
Dave Richards used to be an accountant....
Edit - I've not seen that Norwegian Koala vidoe in ages. I thought it had been pulled off YouTube by the aircraft operator?
Last edited by Max Shutterspeed; 14th Jan 2013 at 19:18.
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Lots of "wealth envy" on display here! Truth is that almost any idiot can fly a helicopter, whether "pro", military, or otherwise, and many do. Poor judgment is not confined to any one segment of the aviation community. Excellent point:
In particular those that are 'self selected' courtesy of having the money to buy
the courses can be extremely variable. Some, because they not only have the
innate skills but are strongly motivated, are exceptional.
the courses can be extremely variable. Some, because they not only have the
innate skills but are strongly motivated, are exceptional.
Last edited by EN48; 14th Jan 2013 at 21:55.
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TC you fly helicopters for a living wow wee. You need two arms and two legs and a bit of practice
You have one massive chip on your shoulder forever battering the wealthy pilot. These guys aren't wealthy for any other reason that they are switched on. I like nothing more than flying helicopters and getting paid for it but give it a rest I've been reading your whining for in excess of ten years now.
You have one massive chip on your shoulder forever battering the wealthy pilot. These guys aren't wealthy for any other reason that they are switched on. I like nothing more than flying helicopters and getting paid for it but give it a rest I've been reading your whining for in excess of ten years now.
Thread Starter
EN48: You are right - poor judgement comes in all shapes and sizes. All I have zeroed in on, in this instance, is whether one of those 'shapes' (it being lots of money) is the culprit when it comes to accidents. IE: is there a correlation between accidents and the attitude of SOME rich pilots. Simples.
Cyclic - mmmmmwha! Love you, my longest serving fan...10yrs and no doubt counting. You can't resist reading my posts can you babes?
Cyclic - mmmmmwha! Love you, my longest serving fan...10yrs and no doubt counting. You can't resist reading my posts can you babes?
