R-22 ROTOR SEPARATION? Florida Photo
Lets keep to the known facts for now, shall we?
Has it been confirmed that this was a bolt failure? No.
Has it been confirmed that this hypothetical bolt failure was caused by a faulty bolt, not an installation error? No.
By the way, there is nothing scary as such about "stretching" a bolt. This is how bolts work. In fact, measuring the stretching is one of the most accurate way to ensure the proper pre-load on a bolt. When you are tightening a bolt with a torque wrench (or any other wrench), you are also stretching it. Basically, every bolt holding anything together on any helicopter is stretched.
Measuring the bolt length rather than the torque is just a more direct, more accurate way to ensure the correct preload has been applied.
Has it been confirmed that this was a bolt failure? No.
Has it been confirmed that this hypothetical bolt failure was caused by a faulty bolt, not an installation error? No.
By the way, there is nothing scary as such about "stretching" a bolt. This is how bolts work. In fact, measuring the stretching is one of the most accurate way to ensure the proper pre-load on a bolt. When you are tightening a bolt with a torque wrench (or any other wrench), you are also stretching it. Basically, every bolt holding anything together on any helicopter is stretched.
Measuring the bolt length rather than the torque is just a more direct, more accurate way to ensure the correct preload has been applied.
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Not in parts book, so I guess it cannot be bought and also guessing that it attaches to the seat hinge which is A928 - 5. part of the seat mount structure. Perhaps easy to imagine it being torn out in a fast nose first water entry.
Can you see the head on the bolt in the photograph?
There are real accident investigators looking at the actual evidence right now, if they come to the conclusion that a faulty bolt might have caused this I bet we'll hear about it pretty soon.
Last edited by lelebebbel; 19th Jan 2013 at 23:43.
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Hey Lebl,
Would you agree that if you can see any portion of the bolt on the side opposite the nut, without that side of the hub attached that regardless of whether that part of the hub is still attached to the helicopter or not that for the bolt to escape it it means the end must have come off. or the hub split at the bolt hole.
Unless Houdini was up there with a hacksaw unbeknown to anyone.
I agree, we would all like to hear some positive answers and pronto, they have had the bolt and hub now for more than long enough to crank up an electron microscope and peer at it.
Totally unfair to be sitting on that sort of evidence.
Would you agree that if you can see any portion of the bolt on the side opposite the nut, without that side of the hub attached that regardless of whether that part of the hub is still attached to the helicopter or not that for the bolt to escape it it means the end must have come off. or the hub split at the bolt hole.
Unless Houdini was up there with a hacksaw unbeknown to anyone.
I agree, we would all like to hear some positive answers and pronto, they have had the bolt and hub now for more than long enough to crank up an electron microscope and peer at it.
Totally unfair to be sitting on that sort of evidence.
Bit if thread drift LELE I an others were commenting on Helichoppers bolt on floor & wondering 
+ ATs comment regarding their accident, If it had happened in flight would the mast damage have suggested low G.one blade escaped other flapping.
Bolt stretch V torque both have their place & their draw backs, I still think the bolts from that batch & the manufacturing process\ facility should be checked.
+ ATs comment regarding their accident, If it had happened in flight would the mast damage have suggested low G.one blade escaped other flapping.Bolt stretch V torque both have their place & their draw backs, I still think the bolts from that batch & the manufacturing process\ facility should be checked.
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A paucity if information still exists on this one, but for Lebl sake i just want to say that an open mind is required that I am not being one eyed about a "failure" because of manufacturing. It may be a failure as a result of a massive over speed - what would break first - Ive no idea.
But let's say the gentleman was overcome with a muscle seizure type of physical dilemma where he pushed down and on with the throttle.
Its quite conceivable, however if that were the case there should be evidence in the M/R attach points, engine and cylinders and especially the tail boom (whirl mode)
Just looking at a head assy yesterday and contemplating something that I haven't before, which is the rotational forces on the hub caused by - full power in one side -- massive drag back the other side on the Hub M/R hinge joints, which are rigid in plane.
Before i only thought of an RRPM over speed in terms of "stretching" the components.
Combine the two forces, a breakage critical point may soon be reached.
But let's say the gentleman was overcome with a muscle seizure type of physical dilemma where he pushed down and on with the throttle.
Its quite conceivable, however if that were the case there should be evidence in the M/R attach points, engine and cylinders and especially the tail boom (whirl mode)
Just looking at a head assy yesterday and contemplating something that I haven't before, which is the rotational forces on the hub caused by - full power in one side -- massive drag back the other side on the Hub M/R hinge joints, which are rigid in plane.
Before i only thought of an RRPM over speed in terms of "stretching" the components.
Combine the two forces, a breakage critical point may soon be reached.
Last edited by topendtorque; 25th Jan 2013 at 21:10.
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Interesting theory, do we know when we might see an official report?
Regardless, it's an horrendous end to a very skilled pilot, my thoughts, prayers and sympathies are with his family.
Regardless, it's an horrendous end to a very skilled pilot, my thoughts, prayers and sympathies are with his family.
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Reading and looking at the pictures dose two things to me, it reminds me of just how close amagedon came to me, and that I am still here to say I have not flown any Robinsons since a bucket full of Wupass very nearly did me in when some jerk who had Hired a Robinson just before me created any overspeed situation of (told to me later) 110% +, once I had hit 60Knts the R22 became unable to be controlled and would not turn to port only starboard ( over dense population) I was accompanied by a very calm ATC man who cleared eveything around EGNH and kept telling me he was watching, after a giant cirlce that was the tightest I dared to do I got back, by this time I needed two hands to hold the pole, all the time wondering what those tiny little 6/7 and 8 mm dia bolts were doing, I needed all my 220lbs of strength to stop the stick from just going mad so decided to fly in rather than come to the hover, just as I hit 40knts and about 40ft agl the shaking stopped and eveything was serene, I executed a very careful flare and came to rest, totally wiped out by the adrenalin rush and starting to realise I was down with the atc man saying welldone, ......
I parked and walked.......never to sit in any Robinson again.. this thread really has brought a lot back to me, and it still concerns me that the outfit I hired from did nothing.
Sorry for the thread creep.
Peter R-B Lancsahire UK
I parked and walked.......never to sit in any Robinson again.. this thread really has brought a lot back to me, and it still concerns me that the outfit I hired from did nothing.
Sorry for the thread creep.
Peter R-B Lancsahire UK
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Good evening TC,
How nice to see your post,...Nice to see you care, I have some time on more exotics a pal has a Gazelle so a little of that and a Squirrel plus a nice 109, plus a Jet R, I just like flying it seems to create a mind set of its own away from earth bound folk who dont understand the total thrill of all direction movement.
However never again in anything Robo.
Peter R-B Lancashire
How nice to see your post,...Nice to see you care, I have some time on more exotics a pal has a Gazelle so a little of that and a Squirrel plus a nice 109, plus a Jet R, I just like flying it seems to create a mind set of its own away from earth bound folk who dont understand the total thrill of all direction movement.
However never again in anything Robo.
Peter R-B Lancashire
Peter RB ...... Now come on ....you are a hunting , shooting countryman with a taste for fine wines . You even almost live in Yorkshire !!!! I really think that people like you and I should be very careful fraternising with the likes of TC . I can tell you no good will come of it .....you will wake up one morning and find he's drunk all your '63 Port and cocked his leg on your sofa 
Don't say I didn't warn you . Now enough of this cosy cosy with the other ranks and get your kit ready for the last day of the season !!!,.
. I can tell you no good will come of it .....you will wake up one morning and find he's drunk all your '63 Port and cocked his leg on your sofa Don't say I didn't warn you . Now enough of this cosy cosy with the other ranks and get your kit ready for the last day of the season !!!,.
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Nige
had a final blast with the old Purdy, good to say I had a left and a right, which has set me up as a hero to some, bastard to others, but who cares, Life in Lancashire the Red Rose County is as sweet as ever and TC is now my bessy, but in the past we did cross swords so to speak.
However I must remind you that when we Lancastrians last crossed swords with you Yorkists WE WON..
Peter R-B
Lancashire
had a final blast with the old Purdy, good to say I had a left and a right, which has set me up as a hero to some, bastard to others, but who cares, Life in Lancashire the Red Rose County is as sweet as ever and TC is now my bessy, but in the past we did cross swords so to speak.
However I must remind you that when we Lancastrians last crossed swords with you Yorkists WE WON..
Peter R-B
Lancashire
You will have to bring the old Purdy to Yorkshire one day .... I'll guarantee you won't get a right and left at one of my 70 yard high birds off the moor edge 
You are welcome to land here anytime passing !! ( I also have cheap fuel ..)
You can even bring your new best friend with you !!!!!
You are welcome to land here anytime passing !! ( I also have cheap fuel ..)
You can even bring your new best friend with you !!!!!
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Hello Dick,
In your capacity as an accident investigator, have you seen this type of accident before? Speculation in such circumstances is not often helpful, but do you have any views as to the likely cause?
Best wishes
In your capacity as an accident investigator, have you seen this type of accident before? Speculation in such circumstances is not often helpful, but do you have any views as to the likely cause?
Best wishes
