Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Pasadena Police - two OH-58s make contact

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Pasadena Police - two OH-58s make contact

Reply

Old 12th Mar 2018, 15:21
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In the air with luck
Posts: 972
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Well that's clearly the fault of the person who built the hangar...............
But the planning officer said It would be OK
500e is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 15:24
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 232
I really feel for the poor pilot. Having just put the whole mess behind her and no doubt, fully appreciating where it all went wrong, thanks to a video upload she now is a social media star.
I am sure all the discussion, above, will be hugely comforting during this difficult time
Bell_ringer is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 15:34
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,570
Bell ringer - are you serious?
Sympathy for someone with 16k hours, been it, done it, seen it?
Total ineptitude - The ONLY good news is that no-one was kiilled.
Thomas coupling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 16:03
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 232
TC, the video footage is quite self-explanatory as to where responsibility lies and where the various holes all started lining up.

Everyone is fallible and have made, do make mistakes. Many are fortunate enough to prevent the final holes lining up, however every year people make errors and often pay with their lives and 16 hours or 16000 doesn't change the trend, though obviously some here find the idea of an experienced person making a rookie mistake quite unforgiveable.

Human error is inherent in everyone.
Perhaps one day we can all be fortunate enough to be error free in which case Human performance can be dropped from the curriculum in favour of a more meaningful life skill, such as knitting.
Bell_ringer is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 16:49
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 14,042
Pasadena police helicopter crash: Feds investigate collision | abc7.com

Understatement of the year

Officials say the helicopters' rotary blades may have touched during a maneuver.
NutLoose is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 17:30
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 2,119
Everyone is fallible and have made, do make mistakes
Might apply to you and me Bell_ringer, but not TC it would seem. He needs no explanation from those involved prior to hanging. Failed human factors? Even Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover screwed the pooch and wrote off airframes, the first (F-104) through lack of instrument flying skill, the latter (Aero Commander) through refuelling a piston with jet fuel. Every accident has an explanation, there is more to the explanation than,
Dumb ass police pilot - not looking where they are going - simples
See the NTSB report, it spells it out pretty well.

Last edited by megan; 12th Mar 2018 at 17:53.
megan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 18:06
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,035
So a pilot lands alone in a forest and hits a tree....who is at fault?
albatross is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 18:10
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,700
Understatement of the year
yes, 2012

So a pilot lands alone in a forest and hits a tree....who is at fault?
the tree falls - who hears it?? Oh hang on I might have gone off topic
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 18:26
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,700
See the NTSB report, it spells it out pretty well.
not really - it lists some actions the Passadena PD have taken and suggested 4 changes
As a result of the evaluation, the following actions were identified that would enhance heliport safety, and bring the facility into conformance with current heliport design standards (Advisory Circular Heliport Design AC 150/5390-2C dated April 24, 2012).

1. Recommend trimming of a 38-foot tall oak tree to a height below the transitional surface or remove the tree entirely. The tree was located 36 feet southwest of the Final Approach and Takeoff Area (FATO); it penetrated the heliport's Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) Part 77, 2:1 Transitional Surface by approximately 20 feet.

2. Replace hooded light figures with flush green perimeter lights in accordance with Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) AC 150/5390-2C, Heliport Design, paragraph 216.

3. Mark the FATO in accordance with AC 150-5390-2C figures 2-22 and 2-23.

4. Remove all helicopter parking spot markings, and redesign the heliport parking plan in accordance with AC 150-5390-2C, paragraph 214, table 2-1, and figures 2-17 and 2-18.
only the last of which was really pertinent to the accident.

The distance between pad 1 and the fuel farm was only 24 feet yet presumably the pilots operated quite happily with such small clearances - the distance between pad 1 and pad 2 was 33 feet so the parked aircraft could have been 9 feet closer to pad 2 and still be as far away as Pad 1 was from the fuel farm.

There is scant HF information and no assessment of the cause, and while I know a SMS isn't supposed to apportion blame, if you don't clarify the reason for the accident, you end up chopping down a tree and repainting things in a 'paper-safety' response.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 18:30
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Well that's clearly the fault of the person who built the hangar...............

Come on Crab We all know the Hanger jumped into the Rotors
roybert is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12th Mar 2018, 19:26
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: earth
Posts: 107
I would still consider hiring the chick that destroyed these police choppers, but the dude who destroyed the Cobra? Not a chance!
r22butters is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Mar 2018, 06:22
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: LOWW
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by r22butters View Post
I would still consider hiring the chick that destroyed these police choppers, but the dude who destroyed the Cobra? Not a chance!
Interesting. That dude is RB's acrobatic B105 driver. Which proves even real pros occasionally make stupid mistakes, in his case the decaying coning angle while downing the pitch exposed his bad lateral distance judgement.
Btw. RB allegedly are restoring their Cobra.
Reely340 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Mar 2018, 06:50
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Dallas
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
How the hell did the guy stood by the nearest aircraft not die?????? Very lucky boy.

It isn't easy to see but it looks like there are painted squares on the dispersal which, if both aircraft are on them, give rotor clearance.

But, the one dragged out for what looks like a ground run, is positioned off to one side.

If the incoming pilot assumes the one on the ground is in the right place and just positions himself over the 'second' spot without checking, then intermeshing rotors do what intermeshing rotors do...............
I just began reading the thread, but you have indeed solved the problem. The little yellow rectangle was much more important than the pilot of #1 divined.
ThreeThreeMike is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 13th Mar 2018, 10:07
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,570
The 'in thang' these days is "Just Culture". God knows, I dole this stuff out continuously.. BUt....BUT the buck has to stop somewhere.
In this instance, the person who wheeled the stationary helo out, earlier and the female pilot each have to take responsibility for their mistakes. They have to own up (conscientiously) to the fact that they didn't concentrate at the time and nearly caused a loss of life.
Sympathies don't come into it. They own the problem and they redress it. Simples.
Rebrief them, get the pilot flying again ASAP and move on.
Thomas coupling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 14th Mar 2018, 09:40
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 46
Posts: 334
so what we take from this, is that the little yellow safety guides that some places put on the ground are actually a hazard, as now people just bang along assuming that everything is in place, and don't check.

It is better, and safer to have NO guides on the ground, park where ever the heck you want, and everyone has to be more observant when the T/O or land. if this place had never had any guides on the ground, she would have come in, made sure that there was enough clearance then landed safely, with the safety guides, we get an accident...

or is someone going to tell me that is the wrong way to look at it?
SuperF is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 14th Mar 2018, 09:54
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: montreal
Posts: 11
how can someone hit a stationary object, be it a car, a fuel truck, a hangar, another ship, I just can't understand, there must be a logical explanation, such as a lack of focus, some distraction, definitely not lack of experience!
the explanation given by the PIC has Nothing to do with reality, just a way to minimize the situation, the huge mistake, a kind of cover up
saying we are all human, again, does not solve anything, other than justifying a loose approach towards our own responsability
its quite a load to drive a car, but to fly an airplane, an heli, is much much more load on the brain, and we must give it our utmost attention
otherwise, s.... happens, and the results are total disaster
really unfortunate, but avoidable
heliturbo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 14th Mar 2018, 10:04
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 46
Posts: 334
the most common example that is the closest comparison, is i went shopping today. It a place i go every day, been doing it for 30 years, for 15 years before that i went with my mum. Drove in the carpark, went to park in our normal spot but i had an accident, i smashed into another car that was half parked across my carpark.

It wasn't my fault, cos it was raining and the windscreen wipers were out of washer, and the car window was a bit dirty and it was a bit cloudy. I couldn't really see where i was going, but since i always park there i just drove in following the lines.....

well I'm sorry but you are a flaming idiot for writing off you car!!!
SuperF is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 14th Mar 2018, 10:06
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 6,700
or is someone going to tell me that is the wrong way to look at it?
helipad markings are excellent and, if used correctly, guarantee safe separation from other aircraft so going hard over to remove them would be a retrograde step.

The main issue with this accident was the pilot not recognising that the other aircraft wasn't positioned on the normal spot and adjusting her landing position to cater for it.

Whatever the cause of her not taking appropriate action (distraction, stress, complacency etc) the markings on the ground only represent one layer of safety you are still heavily reliant on the skill and actions of the pilot to prevent such a crash.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 14th Mar 2018, 13:30
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,570
Lack of SA.............................bites another pilot again!
Thomas coupling is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 14th Mar 2018, 16:22
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: earth
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by SuperF View Post
the most common example that is the closest comparison, is i went shopping today. It a place i go every day, been doing it for 30 years, for 15 years before that i went with my mum. Drove in the carpark, went to park in our normal spot but i had an accident, i smashed into another car that was half parked across my carpark.

It wasn't my fault, cos it was raining and the windscreen wipers were out of washer, and the car window was a bit dirty and it was a bit cloudy. I couldn't really see where i was going, but since i always park there i just drove in following the lines.....

well I'm sorry but you are a flaming idiot for writing off you car!!!
Yep, a company controlled helipad/parking area governed by rules and policies vs. a public parking lot free for all.

That's the closest comparison you could find!
r22butters is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service