North Sea heli ditching: Oct 2012
500e - I think the difference is that this refers only to one of the many (over a hundred) of HUMS parameters, and points to a now well understood and non-critical failure where the action will be something along the lines of "Land as soon as practicable, max flight time 2 hrs" (or maybe 3 hrs or whatever) so the risk associated with false alarms (which we are told will be very few, FLW!) is one of inconvenience rather than real hazard.
From that report:-
7.4.1 Civil approach to certification of lubrication system
The testing of the lubrication system is explained in CS29.927 “Additional Tests” Part (c) which gives the requirement for 30 minutes continued operation after “perception by the flight crew of the lubrication system failure or loss of lubricant”. However, this requirement may be “bypassed” if it is shown that such a failure is extremely remote, i.e. 1 x 10-7 per hour or better.
7.4.1 Civil approach to certification of lubrication system
The testing of the lubrication system is explained in CS29.927 “Additional Tests” Part (c) which gives the requirement for 30 minutes continued operation after “perception by the flight crew of the lubrication system failure or loss of lubricant”. However, this requirement may be “bypassed” if it is shown that such a failure is extremely remote, i.e. 1 x 10-7 per hour or better.
Thats great 212. I'm not sure why there is some dramatics being brought into play here but still.
The comment was made (I think) that no super puma had suffered a leak resulting in the loss of oil...
As you will be aware that report in fact cites G-REDL under the title:-
"Table 15 - Accidents and incidents involving helicopters MGB lubrication systems (all catagories)" page 38 relates.
So I guess the various Doctors and a Professor thought it relvant enough to a specific report to EASA to include. Complain to them if you think otherwise.
Although one truely wonders with this whole story. Whilst one can clearly accept that any dry run capability would have had no impact on the outcome of G-REDL (where I don't believe there is a definative cause), that outcome was clearly undesirable.
Personally I don't think the failures with this type are extremely remote, however it does seem that many (and I have no idea what your own views are) seem to try and make the EC225/Super puma relationship more or less depending on the issue.
Ultimately (and sadly) I would agree nothing great can be takein either G-REDL or subsequent EC225 accidents. It is incredible just how many issues the latest events have shaken out and yet still there seems to be this underlying spin when really it might be better to be a little more open.
One might notice how the latest EC release plays to the 20K FH on the fleet since, etc, etc... Somehow I don't think it judges the mood at all well.
The comment was made (I think) that no super puma had suffered a leak resulting in the loss of oil...
As you will be aware that report in fact cites G-REDL under the title:-
"Table 15 - Accidents and incidents involving helicopters MGB lubrication systems (all catagories)" page 38 relates.
So I guess the various Doctors and a Professor thought it relvant enough to a specific report to EASA to include. Complain to them if you think otherwise.
Although one truely wonders with this whole story. Whilst one can clearly accept that any dry run capability would have had no impact on the outcome of G-REDL (where I don't believe there is a definative cause), that outcome was clearly undesirable.
Personally I don't think the failures with this type are extremely remote, however it does seem that many (and I have no idea what your own views are) seem to try and make the EC225/Super puma relationship more or less depending on the issue.
Ultimately (and sadly) I would agree nothing great can be takein either G-REDL or subsequent EC225 accidents. It is incredible just how many issues the latest events have shaken out and yet still there seems to be this underlying spin when really it might be better to be a little more open.
One might notice how the latest EC release plays to the 20K FH on the fleet since, etc, etc... Somehow I don't think it judges the mood at all well.
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......- Introduction of a shaft cleaning procedure which removes the presence of mud generated by the wear of the splines and thus the localised humid environment on the shaft, thereby significantly reducing the possibility of active corrosion and the likelihood of crack initiation.
- Replacement of one of the main gearbox oil jet pipes to provide permanent shaft cleaning and improved splines lubrication.........
- Replacement of one of the main gearbox oil jet pipes to provide permanent shaft cleaning and improved splines lubrication.........
Just got around to reading the Safety Notice from EC you posted, and the two bullet points shown above really caught my attention. If I read these statements correctly, EC is claiming that the corrosion problem resulted (at least in part) from moisture becoming trapped against the inner bevel shaft surface due to an accumulation of metallic debris created by fretting wear of the adjacent spline joint. Based on what I have seen from publicly available information regarding the design of the EC225 main rotor gearbox, these two comments brought up a couple issues.
First, while I don't have detailed knowledge of the EC225 MGB design, I do know that it is common engineering practice to utilize desiccant breather systems on rotorcraft transmissions. These breather systems are very effective at removing any moisture content within the air volume contained inside the transmission housing. If EC followed the common industry practice of utilizing a desiccant breather system on this MGB, then there should not be much possibility of humidity condensing into droplets and accumulating on the vertical inner bevel shaft surfaces during the cooling period occurring after shut-down. On the other hand, if EC does not use a desiccant breather system on this MGB design, I would ask why they chose not to.
Second, after reading the statement about the problem of spline debris (or "mud") accumulating on the inner surfaces of the bevel shaft, I went back and took a closer look at the cross-section drawing of the gearbox that someone on this thread posted. And indeed, what I saw is that the design of the spline's lube oil flow had a serious flaw. While the oil feed into and through the spline joint is OK, the oil discharge location, to the inside of the bevel shaft, results in the debris-ladened oil flow being quickly slung back against the inner shaft surface due to windage and CF effects. The higher density of the metallic debris results in it separating out of the oil and eventually migrating to large radius, re-entrant features on the inner shaft surface where it becomes trapped. Ironically, there is this exact type of feature located directly at the weld joint.
Very interesting topic!
riff_raff
Jake Molloy column: The return of Super Puma EC 225 - Jake Molloy - Daily Record
They couldn't make this harder work if they tried.
Given the RMT view one wonders why Eurocopter didn't feel for the mood before EC Aberdeen set out their press release with June/July timescales.
Whilst in the middle of all this is the HSSG and they last published "news" early May.
They couldn't make this harder work if they tried.
Given the RMT view one wonders why Eurocopter didn't feel for the mood before EC Aberdeen set out their press release with June/July timescales.
Whilst in the middle of all this is the HSSG and they last published "news" early May.
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Pitts, I have to tell you I and many others on Rotorheads are utterly sick of your snivelling sanctimonious remarks on this thread.
If you purport to be a real helicopter pilot you would be saddened by the situation which has affected not only a very large part of our industry, it's passengers but also a great flying machine that those of us who have been lucky enough to operate it, appreciate very much.
You have no idea of what you are talking about and like most nimrods that sound off on these threads, your caustic comments do nothing for the industry to which the proffessionals amongst us are part of.
The situation with the EC225 is complex and multi faceted but has been approached by Eurocopter in a wholly transparent manner. In fact Jake and a whole multitude of others were hosted at Marignane and given unrestricted access to all areas of production and the EC225 investigation team. No other aviation Company has ever done that.
Your parasitic addiction to trawling through anything you can to stick the knife in Eurocopters ribs disgusts me. Like all one dimensional empty vessels you make the most noise when rattled.
Do me, the dedicated EC225 pilots and most of all, our passengers a favour and sod off back to whatever hole you crawled out of. I am sick and tired of reading your rubbish on this thread. It does not add value. Comes across as utter self interest and insults the many proffessional people in the CAA, the AAIB, the HSSG, RMT, the Operators, the Oil Companies and Eurocopter who collectively have left no stone unturned in their pursuit of the causes and contributory factors to this complex problem.
If you take a moment to remove you head from your arse you might recognise, that whilst the EC225 has suffered some serious technical issues, it has to date, not harmed a single passenger or crew. This cannot be said for any other helicopter flying offshore today. Your remarks offend me mostly as they are forged in the bowels of utter ignorance. Bacteria are more informed than you.
You add nothing.
DB
If you purport to be a real helicopter pilot you would be saddened by the situation which has affected not only a very large part of our industry, it's passengers but also a great flying machine that those of us who have been lucky enough to operate it, appreciate very much.
You have no idea of what you are talking about and like most nimrods that sound off on these threads, your caustic comments do nothing for the industry to which the proffessionals amongst us are part of.
The situation with the EC225 is complex and multi faceted but has been approached by Eurocopter in a wholly transparent manner. In fact Jake and a whole multitude of others were hosted at Marignane and given unrestricted access to all areas of production and the EC225 investigation team. No other aviation Company has ever done that.
Your parasitic addiction to trawling through anything you can to stick the knife in Eurocopters ribs disgusts me. Like all one dimensional empty vessels you make the most noise when rattled.
Do me, the dedicated EC225 pilots and most of all, our passengers a favour and sod off back to whatever hole you crawled out of. I am sick and tired of reading your rubbish on this thread. It does not add value. Comes across as utter self interest and insults the many proffessional people in the CAA, the AAIB, the HSSG, RMT, the Operators, the Oil Companies and Eurocopter who collectively have left no stone unturned in their pursuit of the causes and contributory factors to this complex problem.
If you take a moment to remove you head from your arse you might recognise, that whilst the EC225 has suffered some serious technical issues, it has to date, not harmed a single passenger or crew. This cannot be said for any other helicopter flying offshore today. Your remarks offend me mostly as they are forged in the bowels of utter ignorance. Bacteria are more informed than you.
You add nothing.
DB
Pitts, I have to tell you I and many others on Rotorheads are utterly sick of your snivelling sanctimonious remarks on this thread.
If you purport to be a real helicopter pilot you would be saddened by the situation which has affected not only a very large part of our industry, it's passengers but also a great flying machine that those of us who have been lucky enough to operate it, appreciate very much.
You have no idea of what you are talking about and like most nimrods that sound off on these threads, your caustic comments do nothing for the industry to which the proffessionals amongst us are part of.
The situation with the EC225 is complex and multi faceted but has been approached by Eurocopter in a wholly transparent manner. In fact Jake and a whole multitude of others were hosted at Marignane and given unrestricted access to all areas of production and the EC225 investigation team. No other aviation Company has ever done that.
Your parasitic addiction to trawling through anything you can to stick the knife in Eurocopters ribs disgusts me. Like all one dimensional empty vessels you make the most noise when rattled.
Do me, the dedicated EC225 pilots and most of all, our passengers a favour and sod off back to whatever hole you crawled out of. I am sick and tired of reading your rubbish on this thread. It does not add value. Comes across as utter self interest and insults the many proffessional people in the CAA, the AAIB, the HSSG, RMT, the Operators, the Oil Companies and Eurocopter who collectively have left no stone unturned in their pursuit of the causes and contributory factors to this complex problem.
If you take a moment to remove you head from your arse you might recognise, that whilst the EC225 has suffered some serious technical issues, it has to date, not harmed a single passenger or crew. This cannot be said for any other helicopter flying offshore today. Your remarks offend me mostly as they are forged in the bowels of utter ignorance. Bacteria are more informed than you.
You add nothing.
DB
If you purport to be a real helicopter pilot you would be saddened by the situation which has affected not only a very large part of our industry, it's passengers but also a great flying machine that those of us who have been lucky enough to operate it, appreciate very much.
You have no idea of what you are talking about and like most nimrods that sound off on these threads, your caustic comments do nothing for the industry to which the proffessionals amongst us are part of.
The situation with the EC225 is complex and multi faceted but has been approached by Eurocopter in a wholly transparent manner. In fact Jake and a whole multitude of others were hosted at Marignane and given unrestricted access to all areas of production and the EC225 investigation team. No other aviation Company has ever done that.
Your parasitic addiction to trawling through anything you can to stick the knife in Eurocopters ribs disgusts me. Like all one dimensional empty vessels you make the most noise when rattled.
Do me, the dedicated EC225 pilots and most of all, our passengers a favour and sod off back to whatever hole you crawled out of. I am sick and tired of reading your rubbish on this thread. It does not add value. Comes across as utter self interest and insults the many proffessional people in the CAA, the AAIB, the HSSG, RMT, the Operators, the Oil Companies and Eurocopter who collectively have left no stone unturned in their pursuit of the causes and contributory factors to this complex problem.
If you take a moment to remove you head from your arse you might recognise, that whilst the EC225 has suffered some serious technical issues, it has to date, not harmed a single passenger or crew. This cannot be said for any other helicopter flying offshore today. Your remarks offend me mostly as they are forged in the bowels of utter ignorance. Bacteria are more informed than you.
You add nothing.
DB
The communication around this has been frankly shocking, its both confused and un-coordinated. To give just some examples. You have had Bristow CEO give a timescale for back to service, later back tracked upon and then portrayed as media spin by HSSG.
You have Bristow and EADS give a conference calls (to the people that own the companies I might add - so having legal consequences) suggesting they could not give a timescale for being back in the air, then Eurocopter Aberdeen sends a press release with the June/July date (which was actually 1 day after the Bristow call).
Then CHC and Bristow can't agree when might be suitable and now you've got the RMT banging its drum. Oh and somewhere along the way EC's CEO left!
You have had a slow bleed of information over the issues of which there have been numerous and then we come to the real crux is the endless attempt to put this positive spin on everything.
In the early days it was you telling anyone who would listen Eurocopter know what they are doing, etc, etc and belittling anyone and everyone who dares to speak out.
I'm not interested in what button does what in an EC225, I'm not interested in you giving me a sales pitch. You know why I'm interested in this and as I said the current mood is not very well judged.
You are right I'm not a ATPL, EC225 qualified pilot but lets be honest anyone with an ability to read is able to see this situation is a shambles.
It seems to me that not one of the organisations can talk to the other organisations and co-ordinate and execute a plan. The CAA can't agree with EASA. The HSSG and RMT talk about better communication, yet you look at the HSSG website and it was last updated a month ago. The AAIB are obviously feeling a little on the back foot after reporting the "fix" of the first accident and then a 2nd one went in. Eurocopter can't communicate with its operators (thinking June/July date PR here) and have been put back in a box once by the CAA, and so it goes on.
Then to top it all you have pilots claiming everyone is being mean to the helicopter and talking rubbish when actually its you and other with similar views that are bending things. The first thing you all like to do is claim the EC225 is a Super Puma when you talk about hours flown; then you all like to forget its a Super Puma family when it comes to issues.
So is it a Super Puma or not?
In the end I couldn't care less if I offend you or not but I'm pretty confident that I've not threatened you or made continued childish remarks. You completely misjudge me because you have this loyalty to a machine. Of course I don't want bad things to happen to the people flying in a 225 or the 225 itself but it is a very interesting story and unfortunately the ignorance ball very much seems in EC's court at the moment.
Tell me how do you see things from here?
wow!!
Jake Molloy was correct. I was at the same presentation and can testify to the ignorance/naivety/arrogance of the oil and gas industry (and I don't mean O&G UK).
When Joe Bloggs reads about a Press Release describing part of the problem being due to corrosion - they then imagine a huge rusty gearbox - it is as simple as that!
unsurprising results of the survey but what about this......a proportion felt an increased confidence in helicopter travel - I would imagine due to the spotlight shining on the subject right now.
Molloy did sound quite comfortable listening to his own voice and he represents nothing more than the view of his union members. He has no experience in aircraft certification and ignored the fact that his very same members cause more concern amongst each other when they sit next to a rather large colleague on any type of helicopter which only offers 'push out' windows for escape.
So yes, 225 confidence is an issue but it is not the only issue. If only all NS helicopters experienced the same attention for what, after all, was an indication failure which led to 'Land immediately' directive. I do not fly the 225 but feel it will return as the 'safest' type to fly on after all that is said and done...............
When Joe Bloggs reads about a Press Release describing part of the problem being due to corrosion - they then imagine a huge rusty gearbox - it is as simple as that!
unsurprising results of the survey but what about this......a proportion felt an increased confidence in helicopter travel - I would imagine due to the spotlight shining on the subject right now.
Molloy did sound quite comfortable listening to his own voice and he represents nothing more than the view of his union members. He has no experience in aircraft certification and ignored the fact that his very same members cause more concern amongst each other when they sit next to a rather large colleague on any type of helicopter which only offers 'push out' windows for escape.
So yes, 225 confidence is an issue but it is not the only issue. If only all NS helicopters experienced the same attention for what, after all, was an indication failure which led to 'Land immediately' directive. I do not fly the 225 but feel it will return as the 'safest' type to fly on after all that is said and done...............
Last edited by EESDL; 7th Jun 2013 at 19:04.
Simply make sure you don't feed him.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again:
With regard to "the Pitts":
I typed a response to the Pitts but then I realised that would simply feed the delusions.
Si
With regard to "the Pitts":
I typed a response to the Pitts but then I realised that would simply feed the delusions.
Si
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Pitts,
The only good thing about your last post was that you completely copied mine. That gives everyone's second chance to read my dissitation on you!!
Your biggest gripe is seems to be the timing and flow of information. In fact communication. Your bio- data indicates you are PPLH. Therefore you should have learned some UK air law. You would therefore know that the AAIB has control of all information relating to any reportable incident or accident in order to protect the integrity of the investigation. You would know that all stakeholders involved are bound by law to conform to this simple protocol. As you singularly fail to appreciate this you are either not a qualified pilot, which makes you a liar, or you are a bit thick and cannot understand simple concepts.
Whatever. You do not seem to be able to string a few words together so your career as a journalist must also be circling the drain.
As proffessional pilots our number one concern is the safety and well being of our passengers. We want them to have as much information as they can take about our machines, procedures, training and especially when things go wrong. The offshore helicopter industry is the most regulated, transparent and scrutinised part of our industry and we not only welcome that, we are proud of it.
Your one dimensional comments, serving only to upset those most vulnerable in our industry, our passenger, are not the comments of an aviator. This is why you are vilified on this thread.
Now I know you are unable to help yourself and us by not posting your drivel. However, all I am asking is that as a Journalist you go elsewhere for a while and irritate someone else. As a parasite you should recognise when your host can no longer tolerate your presence.
The EC225 is already flying around the globe. It will fly again on the North Sea and much sooner than you think! Then we will be rid of you Pitts and the misery you try to peddle.
The only good thing about your last post was that you completely copied mine. That gives everyone's second chance to read my dissitation on you!!
Your biggest gripe is seems to be the timing and flow of information. In fact communication. Your bio- data indicates you are PPLH. Therefore you should have learned some UK air law. You would therefore know that the AAIB has control of all information relating to any reportable incident or accident in order to protect the integrity of the investigation. You would know that all stakeholders involved are bound by law to conform to this simple protocol. As you singularly fail to appreciate this you are either not a qualified pilot, which makes you a liar, or you are a bit thick and cannot understand simple concepts.
Whatever. You do not seem to be able to string a few words together so your career as a journalist must also be circling the drain.
As proffessional pilots our number one concern is the safety and well being of our passengers. We want them to have as much information as they can take about our machines, procedures, training and especially when things go wrong. The offshore helicopter industry is the most regulated, transparent and scrutinised part of our industry and we not only welcome that, we are proud of it.
Your one dimensional comments, serving only to upset those most vulnerable in our industry, our passenger, are not the comments of an aviator. This is why you are vilified on this thread.
Now I know you are unable to help yourself and us by not posting your drivel. However, all I am asking is that as a Journalist you go elsewhere for a while and irritate someone else. As a parasite you should recognise when your host can no longer tolerate your presence.
The EC225 is already flying around the globe. It will fly again on the North Sea and much sooner than you think! Then we will be rid of you Pitts and the misery you try to peddle.
As proffessional pilots our number one concern is the safety and well being of our passengers.
There I wiz thinking it wuz what was sat on my Wallet stuffed with all those pounds of Quids!
I always assumed if I made it home safely....so did everyone else.
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SAS, sitting on our fat wallets is likely to cause a slight twist in the lower lumbar region leading to acute spondylitis (or spinelessness) later in life. Like joining the management! Also you are clearly not a victim of the UKs stealth taxation policies. Wuz wallets iz not as fat az they wonce wuz.
Good to see you are still awake on the other side of the globe. As an ex S61 pilot, I am also greatly heartened by your efforts today to resist the opportunity to have a go at the poor old EC225. She needs a bit of a break!
If you are ever in Aberdeen come and have cold one with the opposition!!
DB
Good to see you are still awake on the other side of the globe. As an ex S61 pilot, I am also greatly heartened by your efforts today to resist the opportunity to have a go at the poor old EC225. She needs a bit of a break!
If you are ever in Aberdeen come and have cold one with the opposition!!
DB
DB.
You are thrashing and you are wrong.
Eurocopter Aberdeen released the mid June/ July date nothing to do with the AAIB. For example. Neither does it explain the information that has been released as I highlighted before.
Of course the helicopter will fly again and it will be safe when it does again I'm sure. However you are dangerous to try and dismiss a problem that has been a thorn of circa 8 months and counting. Sorry you just dismiss me because you are rude and arrogant to those without an EC225 poster on the wall or without an ATPL which might fit your view of a proper pilot... Yes there were threads about that not so long ago... Then it wasn't funny anymore after a crash.
Anyway let's not distract things from the points I asked before. You might think when someone talks nonsense you'd be able to answer the points but you can't. The next fight/battle is how Britow return to service with there mind on the zero accident pledge and how CHC deal..
You are thrashing and you are wrong.
Eurocopter Aberdeen released the mid June/ July date nothing to do with the AAIB. For example. Neither does it explain the information that has been released as I highlighted before.
Of course the helicopter will fly again and it will be safe when it does again I'm sure. However you are dangerous to try and dismiss a problem that has been a thorn of circa 8 months and counting. Sorry you just dismiss me because you are rude and arrogant to those without an EC225 poster on the wall or without an ATPL which might fit your view of a proper pilot... Yes there were threads about that not so long ago... Then it wasn't funny anymore after a crash.
Anyway let's not distract things from the points I asked before. You might think when someone talks nonsense you'd be able to answer the points but you can't. The next fight/battle is how Britow return to service with there mind on the zero accident pledge and how CHC deal..
. You would therefore know that the AAIB has control of all information relating to any reportable incident or accident in order to protect the integrity of the investigation. You would know that all stakeholders involved are bound by law to conform to this simple protocol. As you singularly fail to appreciate this you are either not a qualified pilot, which makes you a liar, or you are a bit thick and cannot understand simple concepts
UK CAA plays down chances of early return for grounded EC225s
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Pitts, seeing that you now focus on chaotic comms and press releases from EC/operators/AAIB/CAA/or who ever you are blaming now, are you actually in a position with any of the companies and/organisations involved to have access to all the info released and shared in order to know what all was released when and by whom?