TukTuk BoomBoom

My favorite quote of this whole thread is from FH1100 on the previous page

" Sooner or later people will have to admit that I'm right."

Talk about conspiracy theory, how's the tin foil hat working out?

21stCen

Sas, you could not possibly be further from the truth about Osprey pilot's motivation when they talk about the aircraft. You've seen a few of them post here on this thread, and none of them were praising the aircraft's capabilities to impress their commanders (anonymous postings). As Sans and LW explained, when you meet these guys and become friends with some of them, you can't shut them up when it comes to their passion for the aircraft they feel fortunate enough to fly! When they get some beer in them, there's no way you're going to stop them! Most I have spoken to have flown the MH-53 and other helos previously and they say as much as they loved their time in them, they would not go back. They feel the Osprey allows them to do things they never could before, and to do it faster!

FH1100 says:
Wow, and we are fortunate enough to have you right here on PPRuNe with us to provide commentary. Aren't we lucky...

21stCen

Special ops commander relieved of duty after Osprey crash in Florida - U.S. News

FH1100 Pilot

I said, "As even the dumbest helicopter pilot knows..."

20th Century replied:Hey, you don't even thank me when I toss you the easy ones? Sheesh.

jeffg:Ah Jeff...so ill-informed. Are you even a pilot?

Of course I know of the dangers of the dreaded turn-to-final-stall-spin. I fly airplanes, you know. But we do not use airplanes for combat insertions and the things that the V-22 will be doing. We use helicopters for those missions.

Jeff, your assertion that a trained V-22 pilot will "simply" roll the nacelles forward is so incredibly...galactically naive that it defies comprehension. Do you honestly believe that a V-22 pilot on (perhaps downwind) short-short final to an LZ...a pilot who is possibly being shot at and has a bunch of other things going on and is friggin' BUSY is going to be able to recognize incipient A-VRS and react in time by calmly beeping the nacelles forward, aborting the approach and flying away? Get outta here. Obviously you've never flown a helicopter in your life. Because if you had, you'd know that this V-22 pilot we're talking about is going to crash.

Inverted.

Killing everyone onboard.

Like happened in Marana.

And it'll be "Pilot Error."

I suspect that, deep down you know this but you don't want to admit it because you (and the other tiltrotor advocates) want SO BADLY for the V-22 to be a success. Well...sorry. A-VRS *is* the fatal flaw in the V-22 ("Fatal Flaw" being the working title of my book on the bird.) All the wishful thinking in the world will not make this problem go away.

I know the V-22 does some things that conventional helicopters or airplanes cannot. I know that the pilots who fly it are passionate about it. (Hey, one of the Air Force geeks on this forum is so "passionate" that he even went to far as to threaten my life for criticizing it! No lie. You'll notice that he does not post on here anymore.) I know that there are people who see the tiltrotor as an "advancement" of technology and who desperately want the V-22 to work. The trouble is, it's a defective design from the get-go.

Here's what's going to happen: V-22 procurement will end. Done. Over time, attrition (e.g. crashes) will whittle the fleet down to the point that they'll all be retired. (Probably around the same time the country decides that we don't need FOUR separate-but-overlapping branches of the military. But that's another discussion.) It'll be the government's way of admitting that they shoved this dangerous piece of junk down our collective throats for the economic good of the communities and companies that benefit by building it.

I just hope this happens before too many more of our pilots and soldiers are killed.

21stCen

FH1100 says:
You're right, thanks for that. But the unfortunate truth is that everything you say are the "easy ones."


You should also be asking TukTuk BoomBoom to thank you for the conspiracy stuff that caused him to ask, "how's the tin foil hat working out?"


FH1100 says:
The answer is almost certainly 'yes' if the training was effective. And after the Marana accident which is ingrained in the minds of all Osprey pilots there should be little doubt of that. But the point is that the intense training they receive is geared much more strongly to prevent them from ever encountering the situation described as key recognition factors should alert them before entering a flight regime that would be unrecoverable (just as all pilots do whether they be in helicopters, airplanes, or tiltrotors). Having said that, a training system is only as good as its weakest link. Whether it be in helicopters, airplanes, or tiltrotors, statistics show the highest percentage of accidents are caused when someone either purposely or inadvertently does not to follow procedures or stay within limits. Training does work, but only as long as we maintain discipline and follow established practices.

A friend of mine who works for NASA experienced what he thought was the onset of VRS in the XV-15 many years before the Marana accident, and he said his reaction was instinctive and automatic as a tiltrotor pilot to push the nacelles forward. He flew out of it immediately without any consequences. Of course he was at high altitude and not under the threat of battle, but it shows as we all know that proper training can create the right mindset to allow pilots to react correctly and instinctively to situations that require immediate reaction responses.

henra

Tell me one aircraft for which this isn't true ?
Happened to the Phantom as well...

Again:
At some point in time that will happen.
Maybe in 40 years from now...

Seriously, why should this thing be retired prematurely. Once the high initial procurement cost (we are in no disagreement about the fact that it is an EXPENSIVE kit) has been swallowed it makes sense to utilise such an expensive and valuable equipment to the max.
And expect exactly that to happen.

mckpave

Oh I'm still here you ignorant, arrogant, loudmouthed jacka$$ and now you've firmly placed yourself on my "idiots I plan on meeting face-to-face with someday" list. If you want to start slinging mud again on here, then game on!!

This comment is so incredibly stupid and uneducated it's deplorable yet stands to once again illustrate the ridiculous assertions and attacks made by FH1100 Pilot on nearly every subject he chooses to stick his nose into. If you actually took the time to find out and RESPECT the qualifications of those on this message board instead of simply being the imbecile you are, you'd find out that he has more than enough qualifications to answer questions.

Where do I even begin to start with this moronic comment? Yes, FH, despite your vast amount of tactical helicopter flying experience, I must disagree with your "educated opinion." The short answer is YES, that's exactly what competent, encompassing, professional training programs are built upon.

So once again FH why don't you tell us all here what your qualifications are that allow you to post such passionate and omniscient arguments?? Are you an instructor? How much tactical flying experience do you have? Mult-engine experience? Heavy helicopters? Formal training programs attended? NVG experience? Formation flying? When did you attend test pilot school? Are you even instrument rated?

Comments such as yours come from two types of people: 1) Experienced and educated individuals who know what they're talking about but may not always use the best approach, and 2) Windbags wanting everyone to listen to them yet show their a$$es everytime they open their mouths because they feel they have all the answers and refuse to accept anyone else's arguments. I'll let others on this board be the judge.

jeffg

Actually FH it is you who is naive. What you don't (or can't) comprhend is that a tiltrotor is not flown like a helicopter. Yes, I do expect a tiltrotor pilot to simply roll the nacelles forward. When in conversion mode a tiltrotors primary fore/aft control is the nacelle switch, not longitudinal stick as in your 206. Tiltrotor pilots are taught from day one to keep the fuselage level and control rate of closure and accelereation with nacelles only. It's a different kind of flying .

Please stop with your feeble attempts and developing a tactical scenario. The only thing you prove is that you know nothing of what you speak. For starters, it's generllay a really bad idea to fly downwind to a hot LZ. Just sayin'. I'm sure SAS can attest to that. There are many better and safer techniques available to a tactical pilot than to fly your typical GA pattern, but you wouldn't know because that's your only experience base.

What exactly are these 'other things going on' that will make this pilot 'friggin' BUSY' that he can't do what he is there to do...fly the aircraft? Please expound on what these task are that you envision. I'm curious to know.

That's what training is for FH. When the $h!t hits the fan you fall back on training. It the stall warning goes off all fixed wing pilots know to relieve back stick pressure and add power...with competent training it becomes instinctive. Why do you expect less of a V-22 pilot? If what you're saying is true than we can't expect any aviator to react to an extremis situation correctly. This would imply a much higher mishap rate in aviation than we actually have. We must be lucky. Or maybe we have better training than we used to?
By the way I found that in combat (yes I actually have been there, have you) that the tougher things got the calmer most pilots seemed to get. Perhaps SAS has thoughts on that to.

There are several pprune memebers who can attest otherwise. What exactly are your credentials besides being a blogger and a raconteur? Do you really want to start measuring dicks?

Then why haven't we had more V-22 mishaps in combat? The V-22 mishap rate in country is less than that of most other platforms so your argument is baseless...once again.

21stCen

Although I have not met jeffg, I know him by reputation and through other friends. I can attest that he was a military helicopter pilot who flew in combat. I can also say that in his present position he knows more about tiltrotors than most of us ever will!!

SASless

Sort of an Iron Man was he 21st? A Transformer perhaps?

SASless

Jeffg,

Educate us on "Roll Off" and the procedures taught to avoid encountering it....and procedures taught to react to it when it happens if you would?

Also....what are the symptoms of "Roll Off" as compared to "A-VRS" if it were to occur in a formation approach to landing situation......say as at the Marana crash?

Could the Marana crash actually have been "Roll Off"?

21stCen

No SAS, everyone knows only you could be held in that high esteem!! Which Transformer were you? Not the one that turns into a 'bus' I hope!!


But "Roll Off" is the serious topic of the day (I believe it has been discussed previously on this thread).

21stCen

Sas,
I know you are sitting back in your arm chair with laptop at the ready, with one hand on the computer and the other on one of those green rum drinks. But if you demand:
It is not likely to be received as the best way to engage in a two way conversation amongst professionals. How would you respond if JeffG demanded that you educate us on a question he wanted answered in that manner??
21stC

PS: Got the 'Transformer joke' and added the word 'pilot'!

SASless

21st,

As most of us are not Osprey Pilots...and jeffg is....I was hoping he would be able to explain that situation to us. Nothing sinister in that is there?

My use of the word "educate" was meant to put Jeffg into the position of Teacher....and the rest of us who are not knowing....as Students.

Tcabot113

SAS

What tiltrotor have you flown? If none how can you contradict anything a tiltrotor pilot posts here?

TC

jeffg

SAS
First and foremost let me state that my V-22 time totals exactly 0.0 hours. 21st speaks of my personal and professional associations with those in the V-22 community from a time when a program I was on shared hangar 109 with the V-22 program, and afterward. Both 21st and I count among our personal and professional friendships one of the very few individuals who has significant time in the the XV, V-22 and 609.
As far as being educated you had that opportunity when Mckpave first started posting on here. Mckpave is a V-22 pilot and is very knowledgeable about the platform. He was very forth coming and tried to answer questions only to be accused of doing otherwise when certain individuals didn't like the answers he gave. Your insinuation that V-22 pilots are either so enamored with the aircraft that they can't see the forest for the trees or that they are afraid about their careers couldn't be further from the truth. Every V-22 pilot I know will tell you that the V-22 has it's warts (what aircraft doesn't), and of it's strengths. They will all also attest that if flown within the limits established in the NATOPS it can and will safely complete the mission it is tasked to do. Go beyond those limits and it will bite (what aircraft doesn't).
Here's my frustration with this thread; I'll give you an example: I've flown CASEVAC missions, I've landed in some very small LZs, I've flown NVGs, etc. I've flown just about every component of an EMS mission. Yet I wouldn't go on an EMS thread and contrive a scenario and tell a group of EMS pilots that someday they would have to admit that I was right. I wouldn't do it because I'm not an EMS pilot! I don't know anything about the pressures that are placed upon them, their scheduling, training, etc. I would look like a fool if I did, wouldn't I? Likewise FH obviously never served, had any form of tactical flight training or practical experience and doesn't know a thing about tiltrotors other than what he has gleaned from the world wide web. For him to come up with a contrived scenario that meets his predetermined outcome (based on false assumptions) in a forum which holds as it's members many like yourself who have served, have been trained and have the practical experience (some in the V-22) and then tell them that someday they will have to admit he is right I find foolhardy.
If anyone truly wants to be educated about the V-22 then the next time someone like Mckpave post they should take the opportunity to listen to what they say and not accuse them of lying, covering up or being part of some vast conspiracy to hide the facts. It's hard to be a student if you've decided the teacher is wrong before they've entered the classroom.

TukTuk BoomBoom

Good comments there.
I agree this thread could be really interesting and informative instead its been taken over by a couple of loud mouths not associated with V-22s in any way that spend the whole time telling everyone else stuff theyve read on the web.
When people that are clearly close to the program comment they are quickly drowned out by these two know it all idiots.

FH1100 and Sasless should put a sock in it and let the guys that know tell it.

TukTuk BoomBoom

Post deleted: TTBB, you would know that a Private Message is just that, Private. Not for quoting and lambasting the sender on a public forum

Senior Pilot

Tcabot113

Senior Pilot,

If a poster sends a private message that shows their personal agenda despite what the truth is then it is fair game and for all on this forum to see.

TC

No, quoting and referencing PM's is not "fair game". Endof

SP

helonorth

I have to agree with SP, but it would have been fun to read. Sorry I missed it.