R66 v EC120
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 605
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From: UK
R66 v EC120
I've had email exchange with a number of contacts on this subject and one of them persuaded me to open it up on Rotorheads, so here goes with a comparison of the R66 to the EC120 from the brochure numbers. We all know that brochure numbers may not be close enough to actual “out in the field” flying, and these ball-park figures were all I originally had immediately available via my smartphone
Passengers
- EC120 = 4
- R66 = 4
Cruise Speed
- EC120 = 110 kts at max weight
- R66 = 120 kts at max weight
Fuel Burn
- EC120 = 270 lbs per hour at max weight
- R66 = 160 lbs per hour at max weight
VNE
- EC120 = 150 kts
- R66 = 140 Kts – if below 2200lbs and 3000′ density altitude – or 130 kts if above either
Endurance
- EC120 = 4h20m at 54 knots (who flies at 54 knots??) – or 3h30m dividing range by cruise speed
- R66 = 3h, estimated
Range
- EC120 = 383 nm
- R66 = 360 nm (120kts for 3 hours)
Useful load with full fuel
- EC120 = 946 lb (MTOW 3781 less empty weight 2127 less fuel 708)
- R66 = 1000 lb (MTOW 2700 less empty weight 1200 less fuel 500)
Standard ex-factory price, no extras (note, no shipping, rebuilding, local certification etc)
- EC120 = circa €1.4 million, so approx $1.76M
- R66 = $814K
So mostly they are closely comparable with each winning by a little bit (=within the bounds of brochure PR puff?)
But the R66 has a notable advantage on fuel burn, and by nearly $1 million on price new.
So how will Eurocopter sell any more new EC120s?
It even made me wonder whether Eurocopter had a hand in the delay in EASA getting the R66 certified....
[moderators - pls don't file this into the R66 or EC120 threads, I really believe this comparison is worthy of separate discussion]
Passengers
- EC120 = 4
- R66 = 4
Cruise Speed
- EC120 = 110 kts at max weight
- R66 = 120 kts at max weight
Fuel Burn
- EC120 = 270 lbs per hour at max weight
- R66 = 160 lbs per hour at max weight
VNE
- EC120 = 150 kts
- R66 = 140 Kts – if below 2200lbs and 3000′ density altitude – or 130 kts if above either
Endurance
- EC120 = 4h20m at 54 knots (who flies at 54 knots??) – or 3h30m dividing range by cruise speed
- R66 = 3h, estimated
Range
- EC120 = 383 nm
- R66 = 360 nm (120kts for 3 hours)
Useful load with full fuel
- EC120 = 946 lb (MTOW 3781 less empty weight 2127 less fuel 708)
- R66 = 1000 lb (MTOW 2700 less empty weight 1200 less fuel 500)
Standard ex-factory price, no extras (note, no shipping, rebuilding, local certification etc)
- EC120 = circa €1.4 million, so approx $1.76M
- R66 = $814K
So mostly they are closely comparable with each winning by a little bit (=within the bounds of brochure PR puff?)
- R66 "wins" on cruise speed, fuel burn, useful load
- EC120 "wins" on VNE, endurance and range.
But the R66 has a notable advantage on fuel burn, and by nearly $1 million on price new.
So how will Eurocopter sell any more new EC120s?
It even made me wonder whether Eurocopter had a hand in the delay in EASA getting the R66 certified....
[moderators - pls don't file this into the R66 or EC120 threads, I really believe this comparison is worthy of separate discussion]
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 787
Likes: 44
From: Europe
It even made me wonder whether Eurocopter had a hand in the delay in EASA getting the R66 certified....
And about the delay of the Canadian certification, who's the devil, Bell Canada ?
EC sold only 13 EC120 last year in the all world, maybe 1 or 2 in Europe, what a big market to protect !
The double six will be certified in Europe and will have good sales, no doubt about it.
Henri
Last edited by HeliHenri; 21st June 2012 at 16:21.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 605
Likes: 12
From: UK
Yes, EC120 production is slow...
Eurocopter have made 669 EC120s since first deliveries in late 1998 is not a good record - that's about 50 per year.. In fact, since January 2010 the production rate has been just over 1½ per month - approximately 50 deliveries in 30 months. Of these 50 aircraft since January 2010, 21 were part of the bulk order of 36 for the Helidax training centre for French military pilots so there have only been 29 other deliveries in that time
5 of the last 20 produced have been delivered in Europe. Two to Switzerland, two to Poland and the most recent one to Sweden. A further four of those 20 were a single US police order.
Eurocopter have made 669 EC120s since first deliveries in late 1998 is not a good record - that's about 50 per year.. In fact, since January 2010 the production rate has been just over 1½ per month - approximately 50 deliveries in 30 months. Of these 50 aircraft since January 2010, 21 were part of the bulk order of 36 for the Helidax training centre for French military pilots so there have only been 29 other deliveries in that time
5 of the last 20 produced have been delivered in Europe. Two to Switzerland, two to Poland and the most recent one to Sweden. A further four of those 20 were a single US police order.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 727
Likes: 47
From: Earth
TOC/DOCs?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/194...ml#post2159664
http://www.robinsonheli.com/price_li...cs/r66_eoc.pdf
Parts and customer support?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/194...ml#post2159664
http://www.robinsonheli.com/price_li...cs/r66_eoc.pdf
Parts and customer support?
Last edited by SansAnhedral; 21st June 2012 at 21:01.
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 188
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From: Sydney
Helihub,
I think you have answered your own question.
For reference, I have flown both, and I much prefer to fly the 66, so much more power and no TR authority problems.
That said, the 120B is a lovely machine, really well made, but heavy (all that lovely stuff weighs a bit !).
I suggest you have a look at a recent thread (2-3 weeks ago ?) where a lot of sensible comments were made regarding these two machines (and a couple of others not in production).
In that thread I said that I have a mate who has a 66, and he loves it. More each day. Endurance is showing as far better than published, as is cruise speed (130 knots). I want a 66. Just need to find a "lazy" one meg to get one !
Cheers,
Arrrj
I think you have answered your own question.
For reference, I have flown both, and I much prefer to fly the 66, so much more power and no TR authority problems.
That said, the 120B is a lovely machine, really well made, but heavy (all that lovely stuff weighs a bit !).
I suggest you have a look at a recent thread (2-3 weeks ago ?) where a lot of sensible comments were made regarding these two machines (and a couple of others not in production).
In that thread I said that I have a mate who has a 66, and he loves it. More each day. Endurance is showing as far better than published, as is cruise speed (130 knots). I want a 66. Just need to find a "lazy" one meg to get one !
Cheers,
Arrrj
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
From: earth
This discussion has been done before. My point of view which will stir a few things up, is that the EC120 is a proper single engine turbine, comfort, handling etc etc......
The R66 is still a Robbie bit bigger airframe, but with a little turbine in it, and not much space in the back, except for two people and a midget in the middle. Also this aircraft has not been flown around in the open market for along period of time, I reckon in the next few years there will be issues with vibration of a turbine in a robbie airframe.
But there will be lots of punters in the market place, that have part exchanged their R44 to get to fly a turbine aircraft, but this time will be able to fit the golf clubs in the back.
Remember people it still is a robbie with a turbine in it.
EC120 proper aircraft....... thats why it is a little bit more expensive.
Fluffy
The R66 is still a Robbie bit bigger airframe, but with a little turbine in it, and not much space in the back, except for two people and a midget in the middle. Also this aircraft has not been flown around in the open market for along period of time, I reckon in the next few years there will be issues with vibration of a turbine in a robbie airframe.
But there will be lots of punters in the market place, that have part exchanged their R44 to get to fly a turbine aircraft, but this time will be able to fit the golf clubs in the back.
Remember people it still is a robbie with a turbine in it.
EC120 proper aircraft....... thats why it is a little bit more expensive.
Fluffy
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,852
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From: Canada
Re: Robinson Helicopter Co.
Nonsense - would a potential buyer want a brand new aircraft or an overhauled used one with 2000 hours.
Depreciation (Negligible, freshly overhauled R66s are expected to sell for original costs)
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 646
Likes: 18
From: Europe
Just a reply to "who flyes at 54 knots". I hope you guys plan to work with the helicopter, not just helipad to helipad nonsence.
I did some contract work, actually working with 120 doing power line inspetcions and laser terrain scanning all around 50 knots. Normally I returned with 3:45 on the counter and 25-30 kg in the tank.
On the other hand I would never do the rough maneuvering that I do for power line inspections on a seesaw rotor; in my eyes 120 for actual work, beats the 66 hands down.
If you know what you are doing, running out of pedal on 120 is a very seldom occurance, except during laser scanning, doing pedal turns at 50 knots... I can't see how 66 would cope with that, but looking at the numbers it does that at 100 knots, pulling a suspended santaclaus with sleigh in addition.
I did some contract work, actually working with 120 doing power line inspetcions and laser terrain scanning all around 50 knots. Normally I returned with 3:45 on the counter and 25-30 kg in the tank.
On the other hand I would never do the rough maneuvering that I do for power line inspections on a seesaw rotor; in my eyes 120 for actual work, beats the 66 hands down.
If you know what you are doing, running out of pedal on 120 is a very seldom occurance, except during laser scanning, doing pedal turns at 50 knots... I can't see how 66 would cope with that, but looking at the numbers it does that at 100 knots, pulling a suspended santaclaus with sleigh in addition.
Last edited by Phoinix; 22nd June 2012 at 07:21.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 42
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From: Australia
I'm a firm believer in the old saying "you get what you pay for" having flown the R44 for many years and EC120 now for a while, I can imagine the R66 as just a bigger R44 with a turbine engine.
Yes the figures look good for the 66 and value for money wise, if it was my coin I would probably purchase one if I had to based on the dollar value.
However I can certainly appreciate the 120 for it's (Im my opinion) superior build quality and sturdiness, I kind of liken it the difference between a BMW 3 series and a Nissan Pulsar or the like, they may look similar on paper in terms of what they can do but there is a big difference between the two as most people can appreciate.
Yes the figures look good for the 66 and value for money wise, if it was my coin I would probably purchase one if I had to based on the dollar value.
However I can certainly appreciate the 120 for it's (Im my opinion) superior build quality and sturdiness, I kind of liken it the difference between a BMW 3 series and a Nissan Pulsar or the like, they may look similar on paper in terms of what they can do but there is a big difference between the two as most people can appreciate.
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 3,052
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From: UK
To extend the analogy even further, if I was looking to buy a taxi, I would probably choose the Nissan. But for my personal car? The BMW.
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From: Amazon Jungle
I can imagine the R66 as just a bigger R44 with a turbine engine.
Last edited by Soave_Pilot; 22nd June 2012 at 14:26.
Joined: Jun 2008
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From: England & Scotland
For me the main question is "what do you want to do with it?"
Is it for you to fly (with family / friends) then whichever you would rather be in. A bit like a car. It seems that both will do the job, so which is closer to your requirements?
Are you significantly obese? Sounds a little personal but if you and your better half weigh in at 120kg each then CoG is going to be a problem in the EC120 once you load the back with friends / overweight children.
If you want a workhorse for shifting loads (internal / external) then for me the R66 has it. Cheaper purchase cost and good payload. I would not choose a new EC120 as a pack-horse (but a 12-year inspected machine at under £500k, now then.......). I would rather go for an older H500, Jetranger
If you want to make some money back by leasing it to a club / school for SFH then perhaps the R66 might just shade it - easier transition from the R22 / R44. However, does the R66 record any abuse like the EC120 (Asking here, I don't know). If not then the EC120 is definately the way I would go because I have heard too many stories of expensive bills for over-torque / over-speed events that no-one admits to. The EC120 tells you which flight the event occurred on so that you can nail the cost to the offender.
If you want to make money by leasing it back to an AOC for passenger transport work then the EC120 has it - much easier to get charter bookings for Ascot in something the general public thinks is a "real helicopter".
Neither one is "better" than the other, they offer different things.
Buy one.
Fly it.
Come on PPRUNE and tell everyone else they bought the wrong machine. (That's what we all do; it's a true participation sport and, at times, a team event.)
Is it for you to fly (with family / friends) then whichever you would rather be in. A bit like a car. It seems that both will do the job, so which is closer to your requirements?
Are you significantly obese? Sounds a little personal but if you and your better half weigh in at 120kg each then CoG is going to be a problem in the EC120 once you load the back with friends / overweight children.
If you want a workhorse for shifting loads (internal / external) then for me the R66 has it. Cheaper purchase cost and good payload. I would not choose a new EC120 as a pack-horse (but a 12-year inspected machine at under £500k, now then.......). I would rather go for an older H500, Jetranger
If you want to make some money back by leasing it to a club / school for SFH then perhaps the R66 might just shade it - easier transition from the R22 / R44. However, does the R66 record any abuse like the EC120 (Asking here, I don't know). If not then the EC120 is definately the way I would go because I have heard too many stories of expensive bills for over-torque / over-speed events that no-one admits to. The EC120 tells you which flight the event occurred on so that you can nail the cost to the offender.
If you want to make money by leasing it back to an AOC for passenger transport work then the EC120 has it - much easier to get charter bookings for Ascot in something the general public thinks is a "real helicopter".
Neither one is "better" than the other, they offer different things.
Buy one.
Fly it.
Come on PPRUNE and tell everyone else they bought the wrong machine. (That's what we all do; it's a true participation sport and, at times, a team event.
)
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: I am not sure where we are, but at least it is getting dark
I kind of liken it the difference between a BMW 3 series and a Nissan Pulsar or the like, they may look similar on paper in terms of what theycan do but there is a big difference between the two as most people can appreciate.
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 188
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From: Sydney
Who said BMW's are good anyway ?! (I don't agree with the analogy at all by the way).
On a more serious note, I have noticed that there is a solid stream of positive stories written by pilots who are actually flying the 66 (both here and elsewhere). In fact I have not read a bad thing anywhere about the machine by people that have actually flown the machine.
I find that really interesting, particularly on this sort of forum where people post the most ridiculous comments without any evidence.
Worth thinking about. Like many of you I am also doing my homework on what to buy next.
As for safety the 66 passed the most up to date & full set of tests via the FAA - it was not approved as a "model variation" like many machines have been. Safety is not in question, it has passed the toughest tests (same as the really nice Bell 429 had to pass - it was also a clean approval).
Arrrj
On a more serious note, I have noticed that there is a solid stream of positive stories written by pilots who are actually flying the 66 (both here and elsewhere). In fact I have not read a bad thing anywhere about the machine by people that have actually flown the machine.
I find that really interesting, particularly on this sort of forum where people post the most ridiculous comments without any evidence.
Worth thinking about. Like many of you I am also doing my homework on what to buy next.
As for safety the 66 passed the most up to date & full set of tests via the FAA - it was not approved as a "model variation" like many machines have been. Safety is not in question, it has passed the toughest tests (same as the really nice Bell 429 had to pass - it was also a clean approval).
Arrrj