Logbook 'navigation' definition

[rotarywise]

There was never any definition of cross-country flight under JARs. The idea that any flight leaving the aerodrome pattern was a cross-country stemmed from a mis-application of a part of the UK ANO that applied solely to the authorisation powers of an AFI. Under EASA rules, however, there is a clear definition:

FCL.010 Definitions

‘Cross-country’ means a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures.

The same source provides a revised (from the UK ANO) definition of flight time:

for helicopters, it means the total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped

There is a distinction to be drawn between instrument flight and flight under IFR. Whilst the whole of a flight may be conducted under IFR (irrespective of whether the aircraft is being flown by reference to instruments) instrument flight time is defined as:

the time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments.

[Helinut]

When the OP decides he has a satisfactory response, what is he going to do with it?

I assume he is trying to check whether he satisfies some minimum hours requirement. If that is so, then I suspect that the definition he needs is the one used by the set of rules he is planning to get a licence/rating from.

Many moons ago, we had a thread about P1, and what that meant. I recall that 3 pilots could all claim P1 under the FAA rules (given the right circumstances). We also agreed that only 1 pilot could claim P1 in UK CAA/JAA la la land. Not wanting to restart that thread:just pointing out that you need to choose the right definition, depending upon what you are trying to achieve.

If Hot_LZ (OP) is wanting to get a UK EASA licence/rating,then post 24 is probably the answer. It does not exactly answer the question he raised though. Are you so close to the X-C minimum experience that reducing the total by 0.2 per flight would put you below the minimum? {In my discussions with the CAA over the years, I have never heard a requirement to remove 0.2 per X-C flight, but they could change their mind.)

[Hot_LZ]

Thanks for all the replies gents. I have been monitoring closely the responses and agree that #23 & 24 are extremely helpful. No doubt a discussion that will continue for ever more.

LZ

[Aucky]

Not so much relating to navigation here, but in case you hadn't spotted the difference between FAA and EASA (from EASA PART-FCL page 22):

(g) Flight time is recorded:
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft, from the moment an aircraft first moves to taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
(2) for helicopters, from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped;

So flight time is very much rotor start to rotor stop as opposed to collective activation.

I can't find anything referencing the logging of X-Country time over the pages 22-25, it appears that it's not required to be logged by EASA, but still relevant when applying for ATPL. I think that by that time you will have the required number of proper cross country hours in any case without needing each and every flight out of the circuit.

[gwelo shamwari]

That pretty interesting. Looks like those that fly in FAA land (GOMEX or else where) with very easily 10-12hrs a day blade turning time, but only 5-8hrs wheels up are getting cheated out of some time...

Can I pick which definition I want to use?

[Gordy]

Looks like those that fly in FAA land (GOMEX or else where) with very easily 10-12hrs a day blade turning time, but only 5-8hrs wheels up are getting cheated out of some time...

Depends.... One can log time form the time the aircraft first moves under its own power till the time it stops. Therefore, if you hot re-fuel then you can log all the time.

Can I pick which definition I want to use?

Nope---when in Rome......as they say. If you are applying for an FAA certificate then all your flight time needs to be logged in accordance with their rules.

[gwelo shamwari]

Could get interesting when on your resume you have an addition 3000hrs logged compared to the flight time records your previous Part 135 employer has recorded.

Plent a day of 8/10hrs (crew depending) wheels up, what about the flight time limitations? Bet it would go down well with your employer when you tell him that you're timed out for the year.

[Aucky]

I must say it's odd that stateside they don't consider you to be in command of the helicopter whilst stationary - otherwise, who is? in the event of an incident? I'm not sure what goes on in the GOM but is there really that much time spent stationary, blades turning? Sounds like you should shut down and have a cup of tea if the difference between engine running time, and flight time is 4 hrs

Depends.... One can log time form the time the aircraft first moves under its own power till the time it stops. Therefore, if you hot re-fuel then you can log all the time.

You'll have to do a very slow taxi whilst getting refuelled so as not to stop moving!

[gwelo shamwari]

The GOMEX with 20-40 (I've flowen a contract that did 60 regulary) takeoff and landings a day with 5-10min between each can easily result in 4+ hrs of runtime.

Tea! Do we get scones with that too?

[Aucky]

...and jam, of course!

The GOMEX with 20-40 (I've flowen a contract that did 60 regulary) takeoff and landings a day with 5-10min between each can easily result in 4+ hrs of runtime.

Probably why the rules are different in FAA land, not too much of that going on over here.