Logbook 'navigation' definition
Logbook 'navigation' definition
Good Evening,
I have been involved in many conversations recently regarding the correct entry of 'Navigation' in logbooks under JAA/EASA rules. Some sources are saying that if the sole purpose of the flight was navigation, say toward a license requirement then the entire time could be logged as so. Others are saying that 0.2 must be removed from the total flight time like used in FAA land.
Can the experience of the forum please set this one straight?
Regards,
LZ
I have been involved in many conversations recently regarding the correct entry of 'Navigation' in logbooks under JAA/EASA rules. Some sources are saying that if the sole purpose of the flight was navigation, say toward a license requirement then the entire time could be logged as so. Others are saying that 0.2 must be removed from the total flight time like used in FAA land.
Can the experience of the forum please set this one straight?
Regards,
LZ
Others are saying that 0.2 must be removed from the total flight time like used in FAA land.
Gordy poses a good question....never heard of such a thing.
Also...."Navigation".....do you mean "Cross Country" as opposed to "Local"?
Also...."Navigation".....do you mean "Cross Country" as opposed to "Local"?
I apologise for the FAA statement. That was a mis explanation. We are being advised that for flights that the sole purpose is navigation we should remove 0.2 from total flight time. There is no reference to 0.2 in the FAR.
SASLess - Yes, cross country, not local flights.
LZ
SASLess - Yes, cross country, not local flights.
LZ
We are being advised that for flights that the sole purpose is navigation we should remove 0.2 from total flight time.
By the sounds of the reactions nothing i am being advised is correct which is interesting and will certainly be returned to source.
We are being advised to subtract 0.2 from our FAA cross county entries and there are mixed opinions for the EASA entry. I well believe that this is a fad/opinion being passed on from instructors but i and others just cannot nail down the exact regs.
I have submitted logbooks to the UK CAA before where my cross country/navigation time has been the same as flight time and nothing has been flagged up therefore i believe they are content with this.
LZ
We are being advised to subtract 0.2 from our FAA cross county entries and there are mixed opinions for the EASA entry. I well believe that this is a fad/opinion being passed on from instructors but i and others just cannot nail down the exact regs.
I have submitted logbooks to the UK CAA before where my cross country/navigation time has been the same as flight time and nothing has been flagged up therefore i believe they are content with this.
LZ
There is NOTHING in FAR 61.1(b)(4) that states you should subtract 0.2. I would agree that you should subtract a "portion" of the total flight time when putting it in the "instrument" column as there is a portion of the actual take off and landing that is NOT by sole reference to instruments. However the total time SHOULD be logged in the "PIC" or "total time" column as appropriate.
My guess is that the school where you trained are confused about definitions. There was a trend a few years back where schools were "adding" 0.2 to the time you were charged---this should have been stopped by this legal interpretation.
Here is your cite:
My guess is that the school where you trained are confused about definitions. There was a trend a few years back where schools were "adding" 0.2 to the time you were charged---this should have been stopped by this legal interpretation.
Here is your cite:
“U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
APR 27 2007
(address omitted)
Dear Mr. (omitted),
This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.
Your three questions are:
1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?
2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?
3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?
The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.
It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.
This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”
Federal Aviation Administration
APR 27 2007
(address omitted)
Dear Mr. (omitted),
This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.
Your three questions are:
1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?
2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?
3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?
The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.
It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.
This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”
Very interesting. Thank you for digging that out Gordy.
I wonder how many pilots are actually logging the time from the moment the aircraft moves opposed to the moment the engine is started?
Regards,
LZ
I wonder how many pilots are actually logging the time from the moment the aircraft moves opposed to the moment the engine is started?
Regards,
LZ
Depends upon who is paying the bill!
I wonder how many pilots are actually logging the time from the moment the aircraft moves opposed to the moment the engine is started?
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I am currently training in the US and we always log it as x/c-time if it is further than 25 NM from the airport of departure. As previously mentioned we usually substract the 0.2 when doing instrument training with hood/foggles etc. I have never been questioned about this on any of my checkrides so far.
If you log to the nearest five minutes......and you flip up the hood/foggles at ILS minimums.....and have a one minute hover/taxi to your landing spot.....do you have to log 0.1 VFR? Just asking!
If you log to the nearest five minutes......and you flip up the hood/foggles at ILS minimums.....and have a one minute hover/taxi to your landing spot.....do you have to log 0.1 VFR? Just asking!
For example... TT = 1.7 Inst = 1.6 VFR = 0.0
That reminds me----really need to catch up on my logbook entries, have not done them in about 18 months now.....
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Had a big argument about that on my CFI checkride: the DPE did not want to accept the CPL(H) that I held (!!!) because I my logbook entries for XC showed the same amount of time as PIC & Total. His reasoning was that you are not flying cross country for at least 6 minutes it takes you hover taxi out to the runway, prepare your takeoff, takeoff and leave the pattern - for good measure make it 12 minutes or 0.2hrs that hence cannot be logged as XC. Plus 0.1 for every pattern at every intermediate stop!
Took my CFI, the schools chief pilot, ops manager, and an FAA guy about an hour to convince the DPE to accept my CPL and proceed with my CFI oral.
Right now I'm flying in a place that defines helicopter flight time as "The time between the moment the rotor starts turning and the moment the rotor fully stops". Now that's convenient.
Took my CFI, the schools chief pilot, ops manager, and an FAA guy about an hour to convince the DPE to accept my CPL and proceed with my CFI oral.
Right now I'm flying in a place that defines helicopter flight time as "The time between the moment the rotor starts turning and the moment the rotor fully stops". Now that's convenient.
Right now I'm flying in a place that defines helicopter flight time as "The time between the moment the rotor starts turning and the moment the rotor fully stops". Now that's convenient.
Gordy,
I maintain one can log IFR for the entire duration of the flight if.....
Instrument takeoff from the pad.....done the old Army way...that means with Hood firmly attached and the takeoff is done solely by reference to instruments....the enroute portion is done solely by reference to instruments....and the approach is done solely by reference to instruments....and the landing from ILS minimums takes less than 2.4 minutes or less. As one logs to the nearest 5 Minutes....the VFR portion would have to be logged as "0" and one cannot log "0" and deduct any time from the any other time logged as part of the same flight.
Likewise the Cross country time starts from the time you depart on the X-C flight or part of the flight. In a single sector flight....point A to point B....all of it is cross country. If you depart from the local practice area after performing some aerial work....then only that portion of the flight from the Training Area to your destination would be X-C flight.
People make logging of flight time difficult.....as the rules can be a bit confusing if you do not read the rules accurately.
I submit you can log every single minute of flight time you accrue regardless of License qualifications.
Example....I go out and buy myself a Douglas DC 4....a four pistoned engine transport airplane....read the User's Manual....fire that puppy up and go flying. I fly from Miami to some place south like say....Columbia and back with an RON in Columbia. I fly IMC, Night, and make a VOR approach and landing at night.
I log Day, Night, X-C, Instrument, an Instrument Approach....and do so with my PPL/Helicopter license.....no big deal.
Way back when....I was offered a DC-4 job despite despite not having a DC-4 type rating......on pretty much the same route I described above. When I suggested that would be a problem with the FAA.....I was reminded that would be the least of my problems if I got caught. Which made sense.....and why I decided to try other endeavors.
I maintain one can log IFR for the entire duration of the flight if.....
Instrument takeoff from the pad.....done the old Army way...that means with Hood firmly attached and the takeoff is done solely by reference to instruments....the enroute portion is done solely by reference to instruments....and the approach is done solely by reference to instruments....and the landing from ILS minimums takes less than 2.4 minutes or less. As one logs to the nearest 5 Minutes....the VFR portion would have to be logged as "0" and one cannot log "0" and deduct any time from the any other time logged as part of the same flight.
Likewise the Cross country time starts from the time you depart on the X-C flight or part of the flight. In a single sector flight....point A to point B....all of it is cross country. If you depart from the local practice area after performing some aerial work....then only that portion of the flight from the Training Area to your destination would be X-C flight.
People make logging of flight time difficult.....as the rules can be a bit confusing if you do not read the rules accurately.
I submit you can log every single minute of flight time you accrue regardless of License qualifications.
Example....I go out and buy myself a Douglas DC 4....a four pistoned engine transport airplane....read the User's Manual....fire that puppy up and go flying. I fly from Miami to some place south like say....Columbia and back with an RON in Columbia. I fly IMC, Night, and make a VOR approach and landing at night.
I log Day, Night, X-C, Instrument, an Instrument Approach....and do so with my PPL/Helicopter license.....no big deal.
Way back when....I was offered a DC-4 job despite despite not having a DC-4 type rating......on pretty much the same route I described above. When I suggested that would be a problem with the FAA.....I was reminded that would be the least of my problems if I got caught. Which made sense.....and why I decided to try other endeavors.
Last edited by SASless; 7th Jun 2012 at 14:54.
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If you log to the nearest five minutes......and you flip up the hood/foggles at ILS minimums.....and have a one minute hover/taxi to your landing spot.....do you have to log 0.1 VFR? Just asking!
We have never discussed this really, I've only been doing what my cfi have told me to do
Last edited by strey; 7th Jun 2012 at 19:05.
Sasless...
I think the bigger issue is that most, if not all Robinson pilots are logging the Hobbs meter---which starts turning as soon as the engine is turning. I have been watching students taking an average of 10 minutes from the time they start the engine to lifting to a hover. Clearly this time cannot be logged.
I think the bigger issue is that most, if not all Robinson pilots are logging the Hobbs meter---which starts turning as soon as the engine is turning. I have been watching students taking an average of 10 minutes from the time they start the engine to lifting to a hover. Clearly this time cannot be logged.
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I have posted this somewhere else before as this topic seems to pop up a bit.
A fellow I know was picking up a passenger and got out of the machine to brief the passenger and load him up after the briefing which included "follow me" they were walking to the machine when the passenger could see the pilot was going to one side of the helicopter he had brain fart and thought he would go to the other side via the rear of the helicopter and walked into the tail rotor with severe injures to arm and shoulder.
Now the helicopter was obviously running the pilot can't log that time because the machines not airborne, but guess who's name went in the PIC colum of the accident report.
But how can he be the PIC if he's not able to log the flight time.
I think pilots should log start up to shutdown as he is responsible for the machine as long as its running.
As far as the navigation time goes sounds like some instructors testing officers etc are taking there job to seriously hovering take off circuits at airfeilds are all part of x/c nav to me.
Just my two cents worth
A fellow I know was picking up a passenger and got out of the machine to brief the passenger and load him up after the briefing which included "follow me" they were walking to the machine when the passenger could see the pilot was going to one side of the helicopter he had brain fart and thought he would go to the other side via the rear of the helicopter and walked into the tail rotor with severe injures to arm and shoulder.
Now the helicopter was obviously running the pilot can't log that time because the machines not airborne, but guess who's name went in the PIC colum of the accident report.
But how can he be the PIC if he's not able to log the flight time.
I think pilots should log start up to shutdown as he is responsible for the machine as long as its running.
As far as the navigation time goes sounds like some instructors testing officers etc are taking there job to seriously hovering take off circuits at airfeilds are all part of x/c nav to me.
Just my two cents worth
Last edited by fadecdegraded; 30th Aug 2012 at 04:31.
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below is an excerpt from a prior article on FAA/JAA training in Blades Magazine:
....Compare both and ensure that your training encompasses both sets of requirements. For one example, the solo cross-country requirements of both FAA & JAA have the need for a minimum of three takeoffs/landings at differing locations; however the overall distance is just slightly farther under JAR-FCL standards. The FAA requirement is a total of 75nm whereas the JAA requirement is over 100nm. So make certain that your cross-country flight meets the needs of both. Also, please note that many of the rotary wing requirements differ from fixed-wing requirements, so you should consult someone with specific helicopter experience. For example, the definition of “helicopter cross-country flying” under FAA guidelines is any flight in excess of 25nm whereas for fixed-wing the distance is 50nm. To further confuse the matter, JAR-FCL regards any helicopter flight leaving the local aerodrome airspace to qualify.
....Compare both and ensure that your training encompasses both sets of requirements. For one example, the solo cross-country requirements of both FAA & JAA have the need for a minimum of three takeoffs/landings at differing locations; however the overall distance is just slightly farther under JAR-FCL standards. The FAA requirement is a total of 75nm whereas the JAA requirement is over 100nm. So make certain that your cross-country flight meets the needs of both. Also, please note that many of the rotary wing requirements differ from fixed-wing requirements, so you should consult someone with specific helicopter experience. For example, the definition of “helicopter cross-country flying” under FAA guidelines is any flight in excess of 25nm whereas for fixed-wing the distance is 50nm. To further confuse the matter, JAR-FCL regards any helicopter flight leaving the local aerodrome airspace to qualify.