Big brother is watching................
I'm certain that if someone with evil intent wanted to use a helicopter for any purpose they wouldn't be so stupid as to fill a form out and submit it in advance to the authorities for prior approval!
Just as no-one checks who is in a private car or hired taxicab driving between two private addresses
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Deep intake of breath.
Nobody has said at any point in this thread that you need to supply a GAR to a hotel. So the answer to question 1 above is; No.
I would have thought and you have made it most clear that you don't agree, that by paperwork the Met, Notams, docs etc would be checked and also a check A would be completed. Just because the medium paper itself isn't necessarily used, and therefore you dont consider it paperwork per se, you are only being as picky as I can be. As I have already pointed out, I DID NOT SAY FILE, I SAID FILL
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20110217SSL17.pdf
3 PREPARATION 3.1 Paperwork
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.
So to answer question 2 above is; Apart from the above list, at least a record of a Check A being carried out.
AS I haven't ever said that you need to supply a GAR to a hotel, how can I be wrong ?
Do you really not have to at least check dates and record that a check A has been completed before taking your aircraft flying?
Question Do I or do I not need to complete a GAR and provide it to a HOTEL ?
Question In the context of the type of flight I started this thread with, what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20110217SSL17.pdf
3 PREPARATION 3.1 Paperwork
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.
So to answer question 2 above is; Apart from the above list, at least a record of a Check A being carried out.
The answer to both of the above is that I'm not required to do either. Which makes me right on both counts and you wrong (again!)
Do you really not have to at least check dates and record that a check A has been completed before taking your aircraft flying?
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Silsoe
At last a sensible response......
And whilst I don't want to aggravate either of us, if you read your reply to my comment in one of my earlier posts, you asked me on what authority I had decided that it was inappropriate to complete a GAR form when arriving at a hotel. The inference being that there was some authority that required me to do it - and you've now agreed that there isn't. Thanks.
In terms of paperwork, my reference to it was clearly in the context of making sure we were not moving towards having to file some form of documentation prior to conducting a 'normal' domestic type flight. It was evident to the majority of people what I was referring to. It was not meant, and I don't believe could ever be interpreted, that my inference was connected to pre-flight planning by the Pilot which clearly should be done. If you consider that to be paperwork, which I don't (and I'm not being pedantic) then that's upto you.
Joel
At last a sensible response......
And whilst I don't want to aggravate either of us, if you read your reply to my comment in one of my earlier posts, you asked me on what authority I had decided that it was inappropriate to complete a GAR form when arriving at a hotel. The inference being that there was some authority that required me to do it - and you've now agreed that there isn't. Thanks.
In terms of paperwork, my reference to it was clearly in the context of making sure we were not moving towards having to file some form of documentation prior to conducting a 'normal' domestic type flight. It was evident to the majority of people what I was referring to. It was not meant, and I don't believe could ever be interpreted, that my inference was connected to pre-flight planning by the Pilot which clearly should be done. If you consider that to be paperwork, which I don't (and I'm not being pedantic) then that's upto you.
Joel
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TOTD, I actually have no concerns about the police, immigration, CAA or any other authorised person coming over to my aircraft on landing to check my ID, licence, aircraft documents or whatever. I always carry my passport, even though there is no legal requirement for me to do so. However, no, there is no legal requirement for my passengers to carry any form of identity documents on mainland flights.
However, my concern is that there are some who have been erroneously been leaned on / given to understand the idea that all mainland helicopter flights now need advance police "approval", initiated by submission of a GAR form to hotel staff, and that it may or may not be given.
Please see my earlier posts. The debate/ verbal sparring I've taken part in here was with that in mind.
As far as I can summise, this will remain to be be the case even for the period of the Olympic games, unless the aircraft needs to enter the promulgated restricted or prohibited airspace. Unless the law is changed, it would be a brave police officer who detained an aircraft or arrested a passenger for not carrying ID when there is no legal requirement.
A leaky dam is certainly better than no dam, but you're wasting your time and money unless it's built across a river.
Now, my printer cartridge needs changing, it's overheated. All this damned paperwork...
However, my concern is that there are some who have been erroneously been leaned on / given to understand the idea that all mainland helicopter flights now need advance police "approval", initiated by submission of a GAR form to hotel staff, and that it may or may not be given.
Please see my earlier posts. The debate/ verbal sparring I've taken part in here was with that in mind.
As far as I can summise, this will remain to be be the case even for the period of the Olympic games, unless the aircraft needs to enter the promulgated restricted or prohibited airspace. Unless the law is changed, it would be a brave police officer who detained an aircraft or arrested a passenger for not carrying ID when there is no legal requirement.
A leaky dam is certainly better than no dam, but you're wasting your time and money unless it's built across a river.
Now, my printer cartridge needs changing, it's overheated. All this damned paperwork...
I am now losing the will to live and even taking the piss out of Silsoe has lost its appeal !!! Can someone else take over and see how long we can keep him at this bone ....
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As far as I was aware we're not living in a police state. If the person at the hotel belives your a terrorist threat then he should collect his intell covertly, and pass it on to Op Pegasus. Not ask you to complete the attached pro forma. "excuse me sir, you didn't tick the terrorist yes/no box"!
@Silsoe
Please enlighten us, which of these documents require any 'filling' prior to each and every flight? As you have made it a cornerstone of your spurious argument about paperwork that needs to be filled prior to every flight, I think we should be told.
3 PREPARATION 3.1 Paperwork
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
And whilst I don't want to aggravate either of us, if you read your reply to my comment in one of my earlier posts, you asked me on what authority I had decided that it was inappropriate to complete a GAR form when arriving at a hotel. The inference being that there was some authority that required me to do it - and you've now agreed that there isn't. Thanks.
I think you will find that I have never said you are required to complete a GAR at a hotel, either by 'an authority' or the hotel itself and it cannot be inferred. (see below quotation)
As for the previous post you refer to;
I've also been asked to complete a GAR form for a visit I'm making in July to a hotel. I've politely refused on the basis that the form is completely inappropriate.
Going back to post number 1,
Today I landed at a hotel I regularly visit in Preston, Lancashire and on arrival I was asked to provide my full name and basic details of my flight as was my friend who also landed in his aircraft.
When you queried this, if the hotel said it was for their own movement records, would that have been ok? And out of interest, what was the other inappropriate information the other hotel asked for? Perhaps we will all agree that they were asking for too much info.
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Mike,
Nobody, at any point in this thread, has said "each and every flight"
Nobody, at any point in this thread, has said "each and every flight"
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Pilotmike,
A public transport flight does need more paperwork to be filled in, in the tech log. E.g. Check A signature block, weight and balance calculation, etc. For a private flight, the requirements are less. Maybe a slight misunderstanding over this difference is where this part of the argument took off, so to speak.
As far as the rest of what was mentioned, I'd call it flight planning, rather than paperwork.
A public transport flight does need more paperwork to be filled in, in the tech log. E.g. Check A signature block, weight and balance calculation, etc. For a private flight, the requirements are less. Maybe a slight misunderstanding over this difference is where this part of the argument took off, so to speak.
As far as the rest of what was mentioned, I'd call it flight planning, rather than paperwork.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Nigel,
Thank you for your contributions.
Classic
I am now losing the will to live and even taking the piss out of Silsoe has lost its appeal !!!
NO i dont do any paperwork either before a flight..... other than first of day for check A .
I can see I'm going to have to make this really simple.
JTobias asked:
SilsoeSid posted this quote:
before answering:
This highlights SlipperySid's subversive efforts to obfuscate, by trying to confuse 'file' and 'fill'. He clearly has included various aircraft documents in his answer to JTobias' specific question "what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?" All the nonsense about 'file' vs 'fill' looks rather stupid and infantile now this has had to be pointed out.
As the question was about actions to be taken 'before I conduct a flight', which is synonymous with 'before each flight', I believe most readers (that are still awake) would agree that SilsoeSid's discussion of documents applied 'for each and every flight', in his answer to the question above.
Sid, your comedy 'sarcastic' icon reflects poorly on you, and does nothing to help you to make a coherent case.
ShyTorque, as an ATPL holder, I am fully conversant with the various requirements for undertaking both commercial and private flights, thank you. I made no reference to either commercial or private flights in my comments, even though I believe that JTobias's original observations were intended to apply principally to private flights.
JTobias asked:
what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?
3 PREPARATION 3.1 Paperwork
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.
Make sure that your licence/rating, certificate of experience and medical are up-to-date. Also check that the helicopter’s documents, including Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly, Airworthiness Renewal Certificates, Maintenance Releases and Insurance, are valid.
So to answer question 2[JTobias' question above] above is[sic]; Apart from the above list, at least a record of a Check A being carried out.
As the question was about actions to be taken 'before I conduct a flight', which is synonymous with 'before each flight', I believe most readers (that are still awake) would agree that SilsoeSid's discussion of documents applied 'for each and every flight', in his answer to the question above.
Sid, your comedy 'sarcastic' icon reflects poorly on you, and does nothing to help you to make a coherent case.
ShyTorque, as an ATPL holder, I am fully conversant with the various requirements for undertaking both commercial and private flights, thank you. I made no reference to either commercial or private flights in my comments, even though I believe that JTobias's original observations were intended to apply principally to private flights.
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ShyTorque, as an ATPL holder, I am fully conversant with the various requirements for undertaking both commercial and private flights, thank you. I made no reference to either commercial or private flights in my comments, even though I believe that JTobias's original observations were intended to apply principally to private flights.
p.s. there's a space on your profile to add your licence type, it can help to avoid any uncertainty.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
This highlights SlipperySid's subversive efforts to obfuscate, by trying to confuse 'file' and 'fill'. He clearly has included various aircraft documents in his answer to JTobias' specific question "what paperwork do I need to complete and file before I conduct a flight ?" All the nonsense about 'file' vs 'fill' looks rather stupid and infantile now this has had to be pointed out.
Can I please refer you to post 82 on page 5 of this thread.
I have never said anyone has to file any paperwork before a flight.
I am merely defending myself from the insistence that I did.
If people would stop saying that I did, I would have no need to keep pointing out the fill/file mistake made by JT.
As the question was about actions to be taken 'before I conduct a flight', which is synonymous with 'before each flight', I believe most readers (that are still awake) would agree that SilsoeSid's discussion of documents applied 'for each and every flight', in his answer to the question above.
A pilot has to record the amount of time he/she has been flying in order to keep the aircrafts hours up to date for both technical and personal logging purposes. That means the recording of take off and landing times or taking note of a timing devices output at the end of the flight. Would you consider that recording of flight times to be paperwork?
I think I would, as it must surely be written down or entered onto something, and by virtue of the fact that this is done at the end of each flight, it follows that that same bit of paperwork is also done before the next flight....doesn't it?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
(yawn smiley)
Please read post 82
And while you're here;
I HAVE NEVER SAID YOU HAVE TO FILE ANY PAPERWORK BEFORE GOING FLYING!
Please stop saying I did.
Please read post 82
And while you're here;
I HAVE NEVER SAID YOU HAVE TO FILE ANY PAPERWORK BEFORE GOING FLYING!
Please stop saying I did.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
While you're there, have a look at post 86
JTobias
Sorry, couldn't resist 
JTobias
Silsoe,
There's a tune that keeps popping into my head. I can't quite make it out, but I remember the words :-
'Oh it's all gone quiet over there'
Joel
Sorry, couldn't resist
*
There's a tune that keeps popping into my head. I can't quite make it out, but I remember the words :-
'Oh it's all gone quiet over there'
Joel
Sorry, couldn't resist
*
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Sorry Silsoe,
It takes me a while to sift through some of the nonsense written.
Now where were we ?
Ah yes, paperwork and the fill/file thing.
No, I don't fill in any paperwork before I fly (remember to read my answer in context). What paperwork do I have to fill in before I fly ?
Joel
It takes me a while to sift through some of the nonsense written.
Now where were we ?
Ah yes, paperwork and the fill/file thing.
No, I don't fill in any paperwork before I fly (remember to read my answer in context). What paperwork do I have to fill in before I fly ?
Joel