Bristow Academy 206 down, Florida
Thread Starter
Bristow Academy 206 down, Florida
Strong set of skids here. All 3 POB out and OK, refusing hospital treatment
Press story at 3 Survive Helicopter Crash in Titusville | firstcoastnews.com
Slightly wider angle photo in the video at Helicopter crashes near Titusville during training
Press story at 3 Survive Helicopter Crash in Titusville | firstcoastnews.com
Slightly wider angle photo in the video at Helicopter crashes near Titusville during training
That is the fifth (?) accident in 2 years :/
My guess is the school sells far in excess of 20000 flight hours per year.
My guess is the school sells far in excess of 20000 flight hours per year.
We could do a survey here.. pilot hours per prang?
Mickjoebill
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: London, UK
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good to hear all are ok.
I'm not sure if a single statistic is going to differentiate on training, charter, lifting, filming, various authorities, differing geographical/weather conditions, damage, injuries, fatalities?
I'm not sure if a single statistic is going to differentiate on training, charter, lifting, filming, various authorities, differing geographical/weather conditions, damage, injuries, fatalities?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK, US, now more ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Age: 41
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
low G/mast bumping very low?? Did that happen before?
How else would more accident versed guys explain the separation of MR like this and a/c upside down with skids seemingly intact? Too abrupt/large forward cyclic on departure/climb, yet still low level and not too fast?
Wouldn't hard landing damage skids? Then rolling on side, blades destructing themselves, etc?
Was the tailboom broken by itself or hit by MR blade? Blades look 'too good' for tailboom strike or regular rollover.
Glad there are bruised egos and machine, not lost lives/serious injuries, indeed.
If it was what I think, very, very lucky, vs at least one of the R66 down probable cause. Get that couple hundred feet up and it gets ugly fast.
How else would more accident versed guys explain the separation of MR like this and a/c upside down with skids seemingly intact? Too abrupt/large forward cyclic on departure/climb, yet still low level and not too fast?
Wouldn't hard landing damage skids? Then rolling on side, blades destructing themselves, etc?
Was the tailboom broken by itself or hit by MR blade? Blades look 'too good' for tailboom strike or regular rollover.
Glad there are bruised egos and machine, not lost lives/serious injuries, indeed.
If it was what I think, very, very lucky, vs at least one of the R66 down probable cause. Get that couple hundred feet up and it gets ugly fast.
No doubt I will be accused of stirring the proverbial sh*t, as I always am when I even breathe near a BA post, but I will give my constructive $0.02.
MartinCh
Not necessarily. They had an accident in 05 very similar to this. Read the report HERE. The report is extremely vague, (I wrote it that way... 
and no I was not on-board, I just did the paperwork). In this case the instructor was not signed off for doing full down autos and was doing "power recoveries". The aircraft hit the ground hard and bounced about 6 inches forward---during the bounce, the instructor pulled aft cyclic and severed the tail boom. The aircraft remained upright with the main rotor system intact. The tail boom was cut at a similar point as is shown in this latest accident. There was no bending or distortion on the landing gear skid tubes. Unfortunately I do not have my pictures of this accident with me---they do show all the ground marks pretty well.
Without knowing anything further, I would like to suggest that this might have been a repeat of the 2005 accident in that during the flare/touchdown portion of an auto, (whether it be simulated or real), the aircraft bounced, aft cyclic was applied thereby severing or distorting the tail boom, T/R authority was lost, the aircraft started to spin with bank angle, a skid contacted the ground and due to the momentum, the aircraft rolled onto its side.
While we are on the subject of autos, one thing that Shawn Coyle and I discussed during his visit to the academy back then, (it was still HAI at the time), was conducting full downs to grass vs hard surface. That may or may not have changed the outcome on the 2005 accident---I tend to think it might have had a different outcome. On grass, the skids dig in which negates the "flex" capability of the system. On a hard surface, a fair amount of the downward energy would be absorbed by the flexing undercarriage and the aircraft "may" not bounce.
For the Bristow "sensor" who likes to accuse me of "stirring"..... All of my comments here are my opinion, are stated for the purpose of continuing education and speculation, and are in no way intended to discredit anyone. It is after all called :
MartinCh
Wouldn't hard landing damage skids? Then rolling on side, blades destructing themselves, etc?
Was the tailboom broken by itself or hit by MR blade? Blades look 'too good' for tailboom strike or regular rollover.
Was the tailboom broken by itself or hit by MR blade? Blades look 'too good' for tailboom strike or regular rollover.
and no I was not on-board, I just did the paperwork). In this case the instructor was not signed off for doing full down autos and was doing "power recoveries". The aircraft hit the ground hard and bounced about 6 inches forward---during the bounce, the instructor pulled aft cyclic and severed the tail boom. The aircraft remained upright with the main rotor system intact. The tail boom was cut at a similar point as is shown in this latest accident. There was no bending or distortion on the landing gear skid tubes. Unfortunately I do not have my pictures of this accident with me---they do show all the ground marks pretty well. Without knowing anything further, I would like to suggest that this might have been a repeat of the 2005 accident in that during the flare/touchdown portion of an auto, (whether it be simulated or real), the aircraft bounced, aft cyclic was applied thereby severing or distorting the tail boom, T/R authority was lost, the aircraft started to spin with bank angle, a skid contacted the ground and due to the momentum, the aircraft rolled onto its side.
While we are on the subject of autos, one thing that Shawn Coyle and I discussed during his visit to the academy back then, (it was still HAI at the time), was conducting full downs to grass vs hard surface. That may or may not have changed the outcome on the 2005 accident---I tend to think it might have had a different outcome. On grass, the skids dig in which negates the "flex" capability of the system. On a hard surface, a fair amount of the downward energy would be absorbed by the flexing undercarriage and the aircraft "may" not bounce.
For the Bristow "sensor" who likes to accuse me of "stirring"..... All of my comments here are my opinion, are stated for the purpose of continuing education and speculation, and are in no way intended to discredit anyone. It is after all called :
Nice write, Gordy. I agree with your perspective.
Been in that "oh s**t" situation where the student has left the flare a little late and you (the instructor) didn't catch it in time. Fast slide-on with a collective pull will take care of it, let the skid gear do its job. Bell Academy did all their full-on auto to pavement, and there is more noise (and sparks at night) than grass. Sounds like hell, but the skid shoes do their job, and are replaceable. Almost doing a nose-stand on grass once that turned out to be mud teaches a few other cautions about checking the grass surface carefully - it is also less tolerant of side-drift than pavement. Almost funny the way some simulators are programmed to give you different feedback if you auto onto grass or the runway.
Recent AStar fatality on the West Coast here from an engine failure on takeoff had the comment that if had come down on level ground instead of deep snow, the gear would have done its job and absobed the vertical shock. Instead the cabin took the full jolt.
Been in that "oh s**t" situation where the student has left the flare a little late and you (the instructor) didn't catch it in time. Fast slide-on with a collective pull will take care of it, let the skid gear do its job. Bell Academy did all their full-on auto to pavement, and there is more noise (and sparks at night) than grass. Sounds like hell, but the skid shoes do their job, and are replaceable. Almost doing a nose-stand on grass once that turned out to be mud teaches a few other cautions about checking the grass surface carefully - it is also less tolerant of side-drift than pavement. Almost funny the way some simulators are programmed to give you different feedback if you auto onto grass or the runway.
Recent AStar fatality on the West Coast here from an engine failure on takeoff had the comment that if had come down on level ground instead of deep snow, the gear would have done its job and absobed the vertical shock. Instead the cabin took the full jolt.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK, US, now more ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Age: 41
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Gordy.
The bounce is plausible, I just don't get the blades with hub separated and ending up like that. Still together. You've been flying those machines for ages, so you know more about it. What you said is more likely than low G pushover. By the time people do Jetranger transition, they should be careful enough.
The mishaps mentioned earlier that happened in the past, well, there could have been more had BA used R22 as main trainer and not more forgiving S300.
I looked at the report. 6k+ heli time and 1300 206 time? I guess people can get caught out at any level. There were few articles about full downs to grass vs tarmac/concrete. I'd not dare to do full down in R22 to grass, especially little to no wind. I've heard/read of people flipping over machines in muddy etc terrain doing full downs practice, even off airport.
So, to take some advice form Gordy's words, if people end up doing flare too low and too late to arrest the descent rate, then they should rather slide forward bit more than yank back and possibly cut the tail a bit. Even more so in two bladed helicopters. If bouncing anyway, better level with forward motion than on heels or aft cyclic making things worse. Still lots of variables in any auto, though.
The bounce is plausible, I just don't get the blades with hub separated and ending up like that. Still together. You've been flying those machines for ages, so you know more about it. What you said is more likely than low G pushover. By the time people do Jetranger transition, they should be careful enough.
The mishaps mentioned earlier that happened in the past, well, there could have been more had BA used R22 as main trainer and not more forgiving S300.
I looked at the report. 6k+ heli time and 1300 206 time? I guess people can get caught out at any level. There were few articles about full downs to grass vs tarmac/concrete. I'd not dare to do full down in R22 to grass, especially little to no wind. I've heard/read of people flipping over machines in muddy etc terrain doing full downs practice, even off airport.
So, to take some advice form Gordy's words, if people end up doing flare too low and too late to arrest the descent rate, then they should rather slide forward bit more than yank back and possibly cut the tail a bit. Even more so in two bladed helicopters. If bouncing anyway, better level with forward motion than on heels or aft cyclic making things worse. Still lots of variables in any auto, though.
Don't do full down autos at all and save all of us ( owners ... Not pilots ..) a load of cash on our premiums !!!!!!...... Apart from ,admittedly , being fun they are totally unnecessary and have caused the writing off of 10x as many aircraft than have ever been trashed by genuine engine failures . Instructors seem to be mesmerised by practicing something that ( from 2ft up .... ie you practice power recovery after the flare ) is v v unlikely to kill or even hurt you . If you can get the machine to 2-3ft and near zero ground speed then forget the rest !!!
I certainly now would never allow autos to the ground in any of my machines and will expect my insurance co to take that into account .
Ps. If you can cock it up in a 206 god knows how you would have ended up in something more tricky ......
I certainly now would never allow autos to the ground in any of my machines and will expect my insurance co to take that into account .
Ps. If you can cock it up in a 206 god knows how you would have ended up in something more tricky ......
nigelh
While I may agree with you in principle, some organisations require it, and to be honest, in some aircraft it is easier to put it on the ground than to try and power recover.......
Don't do full down autos at all
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Penzance
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Against which you have (of course) added up all the aircraft that have been saved because the pilot was proficient in engine offs, and was therefore able to hand in a perfectly useable airframe at the end of the emergency?
the student has left the flare a little late so you are low and fast, and you (the instructor) didn't catch it in time. Fast slide-on with a collective pull will take care of it, let the skid gear do its job.
Student leaves the flare too late (which is kind of your fault anyhow, but having got yourself in the position you have to deal with it);
Take over, reef up on the collective to quickly get some height under your tail, then immedately flare hard and lower the collective again to regain / maintain rotor rpm (flare 'zoom' and collective reduction should balance eachother out if judged right, keeping you at the right height);
Now you should be back in a relatively normal 'end of auto flare' position, continue as usual.
It's not for the faint-hearted, but it does work.
Some good points raised so far.
Certainly (for the reasons mentioned) using a firm surface such as asphalt or concrete is advisable but grass tends to be kinder on the airframe - less vertical 'shock' (through the absorption of some of the energy by the ground on initial touchdown) and sometimes, depending on the surface, less 'juddering' to the skids during run-on.
Checking the touchdown zone is truly an important consideration and can save much heartache later on!
Its been posted before but its such a good example of a 'classic' 206 auto that its worth repeating:
Back in the day some insurers would get pretty specific about what could and what could not be done when it came to autos. More than one 206 I flew had approval for touchdowns .. with the provision that this be carried-out only when the craft was wearing shorts (ie. fitted with low skids). Certainly the lower centre of gravity with short skids helps.
Would be interested to read a summary of Shawn's 'Pass on the Grass' booklet if someone would care to post the highlights.
Regarding touchdown autos in general; I always found they inspired confidence, especially when taught by a capable instructor. I do believe that getting that 'last bit' right is important!
Have some interesting memories from the US which involved spraying a stream of sparks from a set of 206 skids during night t/r failure training and which involved putting the bird on the taxiway at around 30kts or so but that, as they say, is another story!
Certainly (for the reasons mentioned) using a firm surface such as asphalt or concrete is advisable but grass tends to be kinder on the airframe - less vertical 'shock' (through the absorption of some of the energy by the ground on initial touchdown) and sometimes, depending on the surface, less 'juddering' to the skids during run-on.
Checking the touchdown zone is truly an important consideration and can save much heartache later on!
Its been posted before but its such a good example of a 'classic' 206 auto that its worth repeating:
Back in the day some insurers would get pretty specific about what could and what could not be done when it came to autos. More than one 206 I flew had approval for touchdowns .. with the provision that this be carried-out only when the craft was wearing shorts (ie. fitted with low skids). Certainly the lower centre of gravity with short skids helps.
Would be interested to read a summary of Shawn's 'Pass on the Grass' booklet if someone would care to post the highlights.
Regarding touchdown autos in general; I always found they inspired confidence, especially when taught by a capable instructor. I do believe that getting that 'last bit' right is important!
Bell Academy did all their full-on auto to pavement, and there is more noise (and sparks at night) ..