Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Hog Hunting....Texas Style!

Wikiposts
Search
Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Hog Hunting....Texas Style!

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 09:07
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Land of damp and drizzle
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Are those hogs IFR-approved? tsk tsk...
Pandalet is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 09:44
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Milano, Italia
Posts: 2,423
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
C'mon Shy, I am sure you can do better than that!

Not only must the aircraft be a twin but the crew (and passengers) must have attended at 'hog familiarisation' course at a US Depart of Livestock, Agriculture (and other things that move) facility within the past 90 days.

Shooters are additionally required to attend a 'know your swine' day at the American Association of Hog Lovers to better 'feel' the needs of hogs in an effort to encourage 'humane' shooting.

Prior to any shooting sorties the crew must have surveyed the intended hunting area (with video evidence) making editorial note via an interactive onboard GPS map display of any obstacles within the hunting zone. Due to the fact that reconnaissance flights are required to be recorded this (technically) falls under the category of 'filming' and therefore necessitates the presence of a member of the American Humane Association (who must also have attended the hog familiarisation course).

Due to the sensitivities of hog shooting the operator must exercise due consideration for members of the community who are offended by the culling of hogs and make provision for between one and three representatives of the local community to be present on board during such operations (and who must have attended the hog familiarisation course .. of course!).

Should, during the course of the cull, a member of the hog-loving community (offended by the aerial slaughter of hogs) wish to exercise their First Amendedment right to 'net' the boar (for humane reasons) the operator shall not forbid the community member from attempting to do so and shall make necessary provision for the community member to be able to fire a US Game and Wildlife approved net gun. The community member must have attended an approved net gun training course within the past 90 days with certification for operations on the specific aircraft type used by the operator.

Should the community member be successful in netting a hog the community member shall be responsible for the recovery of the hog and its humane relocation or disposal and in regard to which a separate volume of regulations apply.

Due to the unlikely phenomena of 'hog out' (where the dust generated by the tiny trotters of numerous hogs creates a dust cloud affecting the pilot's visibility) hog hunting helicopters must be IFR equipped and flown by a pilot with a current instrument rating.

In the unlikely event of a forced landing or crash during hunting operations, all personnel carried aboard hog-hunting helicopters must wear approved anti-goring body armour so as to be shielded from the potential retaliations of angy boars should the aircraft happen to alight or crash within the immediate vicinity of the hunted hogs.

I sure there's more but I am simply unable to remember at this time .. perhaps someone else does!




No Animals Were Harmed® during the compilation of this post
Savoia is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 10:04
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Land of the Trolls
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bravo Savoia

Don't you just arguments like this

PV


SAS

"Beer" hunting ?
Is that not illegal
Paddyviking is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 10:36
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Seeing as how I've been at the business end of this stuff for a while I should lend a few comments.

Foot and mouth is one disease you missed Sasless. The whole of the north of Australia is paranoid about that especially with our northern pig population when the boat people would land on our coastline. One mob landed right by Darwin, walked up and hailed a taxi from downtown, the taxi driver ‘woke’ and took them to the local fed shed. Now they all go straight to the 5* accommodation at Xmas Is.

Lots of problems portrayed in the video and Shy T is right, with two shooters there should two engines, in fact two machines, one the other side of the thickets to blow the critters out into the clear air and the other mows them down, could be the message.

Rule number one get the second shooter out. Allow the pilot to concentrate on one gun which will give him enough power margins to do so. Plenty of times you can see him labouring while the engine man throws a few more shovels of coal in to get the steam up while the earth just stands still, at a very unsafe vertical distance below should the engine decide to quit. In that terrain flying outside the H/V so much is just not on.

Rule number two, never but never lift that barrel skywards. At the 4.38 mark the rear shooter raises his barrel skyward. Very tired of living that boy! Over here you do that, you walk and don't fly ever again, and you be lucky the pilot doesn’t bash p**s outa you.

Sasless suggested figures of 30 per hour; we have consistently shot in good conditions 120 to 140 per hour. That's brumbies, pigs, donkeys, buffalo and feral cattle.
We averaged close to that on one donkey shoot over five years and 2200 hours.

Rule number three wrong position; get lower and from the rear quarter behind the last in line and work along the line of animals, and slow down, keep in formation with them instead of over flying them. That’s where the lower AUW really counts. I’ve often had a shooter on board, didn’t have to move his barrel at all, I just lined it up with the pedals each time and he just kept pulling the trigger at about one per second. A line of twenty animals behind a twenty shot mag was very common. Best I ever had was a bloke that put down 286 donkeys in 18.5 minutes. Then we landed to reload the 10x20 and 3x30 shot mags. We went back and finished off about five which weren’t dead, he was phenomenal, by far the best I ever saw. A bit like Custer's last stand.

Rule number four, get some accuracy. That’s the worst shooting I’ve seen. In the donkey shoot I talked about we averaged 1.3/hd and in the early days of BTEC it was the same with bullet counters everywhere. Later because of the greenies we developed the double tap just to make sure, so now it’s around 2.1/hd. Never shoot while turning which is obvious here - often.

Rule number five. No loin shooting as we see in the video. If that footage gets out into the greenie arena you can forget it red rover, all over. Also as seen a couple of times animals left not dead, we never left animals without ensuring all were dead. That was imperative.

We started in the eighties with open sights then peep sights and then the two power optical, which were very good and nearly all head shots. The red dot scopes mostly fell apart. The scope in the front gun is a magic device an EO Tech, about AU$1,500.00 for a good quality one. It is impossible to miss with the damm thing. The barrel mounted video on the rear gun is through another type of scope we were to use on another contract here but didn’t get. It is also very good, and can be plugged into an internal monitor can record for several hours and be coupled to a GPS. No arguments then about where you were. With the monitor the pilot can fly the sight line.

The shooter should get a foot peg mounted onto the skid upright, a very simple gadget. The shooters should also be wearing helmets, what’s wrong with them?

The rifles look like AR15’s. They have shown themselves up to handling long hard hours over here with the .308 round. For pigs you would probably only need the 5.56mm.

Unless some reforms are implemented in Texas I can see it being a short term crash infested affair. In OZ we have shot well over 2 million ferals, without pigs and we had very few accidents, less than ten at that work over twenty years. The majority of which were caused by wires. One bloke shot himself down with a ricochet going back into his T/R on a R22, another two put empty cases into the engine cooling fan on 47’s.
The trick here was all that work was done with experienced pilots, most of whom are now elsewhere.

One last thing, the camera ship was living dangerously looking for a ricochet fragment to come his way, tell him to p**s orff behind the line of shooting, halfwit.

Nowadays I would much prefer to mount up in an Enstrom 480B with a stabilised rifle mount, plenty of room, power, endurance and cheap enough to run. I bet it would outperform the R44 on a per head basis.

Pandalet,
Not quite IFR, but I have seen footage of FLIR hog hunting on some island group, can't remember where, (costa rica perhaps) quite remarkable. Trophy shooting it was. someone might find it.
cheers tet
topendtorque is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 10:38
  #25 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes on 222 Posts
Are these flights done under VFR:

Verminous
Feral
Riddance.

Or, they could be done under IFR

Indigenous
Farmers'
Revenge.

Only askin'....
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 12:50
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,509
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes on 14 Posts
via VH-XXX #18;
...Over here if we didn't go back and stick a cap in the head of the wounded ones we'd be hearing screams from the greenies!
Cap to the head of screaming greenies...


...




.
Flying Binghi is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 14:55
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: mobile
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not black catting but in the late '60s was involved in an elephant and buffelo cull in Kruger Park for 6 months using a Bell47 and poison darts!!
mtoroshanga is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2012, 20:33
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks eddie 1, most entertaining. Note the Owen gun photo just before the Thompson. always wanted to own one of them.

The gun buy back certainly got rid of a lot of hardware, my own special Springfield, two SKB semi auto shotguns and a couple of other smaller automatics for one, but recently there has been media reports of there being more guns than ever in parts of New South Wales and Victoria, so the fascination with firearms prevails.

We try to make sure the feral dogs, err-all but protected and prolific dingos, that chew our calves gleefully don't get far when sighted with my varmit barrelled .243.

Lucijet is the one poison that will remove large quatities of hogs quick time. All's needed is a cement mixer and a heap of second grade peanuts.

mtoroshanga,
you remind me of some of the most humourous times during the big shoot outs of the BTEC campaign, which was tranquilising and collaring cows (or bulls early on) as judas cows. Getting that dope load right was very entertaining if the doped cow wasn't quite out to it and woke up duing the process with a most unfriendly attitude with a mob of us standing around her and the nearest tree quite a sprint away.
tet
topendtorque is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2012, 08:33
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: mobile
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Before the cull we had to do a count so one animal in each herd had to be darted and a big yellow number painted on its side. Ther was a few hairy moments during that op!!!
mtoroshanga is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2012, 10:14
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I aave to agree with some of the comments on the flying in that video, it looks horribly dangerous, ill considered and frankly cowboy. I've never actually shot pig from the air but have chased Warthog many times with a view to borrowing a rifle and having a desert barbecue, as did my colleagues at the time. The technique is as described above, sit on their rear quarter and they'll just trot along offering a clear and easy shot. Get too close and they spook and double under you or swerve to the side. 40-60 feet away was probably the distance to keep them in a straight line. We found we could direct them where we wanted them to go reasonably well and it was easy enough to keep splitting a group until you'd cut out the one you wanted and got him on his own (we didn't fancy the idea of his mum and dad coming looking for him as we were roping him up).
Sadly we fell foul of silly notions that the guards might get offended that we were eating pig...we weren't planning to offer them any. Pity. I'd love to be able to tell tales of hunting Warthog with an AK from a Jetranger!
Agaricus bisporus is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2012, 12:54
  #31 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,290
Received 515 Likes on 215 Posts
Imagine that...."Cowboys in Texas"? What is this old World coming to?
SASless is online now  
Old 3rd Feb 2012, 19:41
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They say Sasless that nothing bigger'n it is in Texas. cowboys and acttle ranches is symbolic of the joint. The average "ranch" size is 14 head. Yep fourteen.

Where I live the average Kau farm is 4,500 head, Just an observation.

Treated one day to a very low pass and orbit or two by two of the then very new B2's on their first trip out here in a "pitch black" exercise. We were yarding up a mob of some 2,200 head and I guess the drivers just wanted to see what a real aussie kau farm yard up looked like.

We really appreciated it, especially when they decided to pour the coal on and cut. Awesome power.
I guess they must have 'seen' us from quite away back and wondered what the heck we were doing.
tet
topendtorque is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2012, 03:46
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Topendtorque,

In Texas, agricultural tax exemptions make just about every land owner of any size a "rancher." In fact, driving out of Houston's IAH airport, you'll see a small plot of land in between hotels and car parks, with several head of cattle. Smart land owner, that one. The first thing someone does when they buy a couple acres in the country is apply as a ranch and get the ag tax exemption, and put a few head of cattle on it for when the tax collector comes by.
Matari is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2012, 07:17
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Matari,

That makes sense then, I could never figure it out. That used be the case here, a Pitt St. corporate on a multimillion wage owning a little farmlet and paying just about zero tax because of his claimed primary producer status. Now they have tightened up big time and there are laws against claiming major benefits against your minor business entity income.
You guys better keep quiet or Mr. O will have a big slice of those tax rebates returned to big brother.

I noticed also there are 25 or so million people in Texas; the Northern Territory is 2 and half times larger, or 6 times bigger'n Great Britain, with a population of only 300,000, half of whom are indigenes, so not too many taxpayers.

One of my favourite relax times is to watch TV doco’s of GB coast lines etc, I am amazed at the open spaces, must be proper cramped up somewhere.

Cheers tet.
topendtorque is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2012, 12:19
  #35 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,290
Received 515 Likes on 215 Posts
The problem with Texans is they generally try to cram a two gallon head into a ten gallon stetson.

Which sounds like a good description of some of these folks...as being all Hat and no Cattle!
SASless is online now  
Old 4th Feb 2012, 22:21
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas
Age: 53
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There were two shooters who switched positions as the day went on. One of them used a RRA 308, while the other prefers a Saiga 12 gauge. As for the pilot of the other aircraft, try to keep in mind sometimes you just have to do what the boss says.
Helo-Pilot is offline  
Old 4th Feb 2012, 22:49
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas
Age: 53
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And SAS, your right. Some of these folks are all hat, no cattle. That makes them FARMERS. Have you ever seen what a few hogs can do to a crop? It definatly justifies the cost of a helicopter when you are farming a couple of thousand acres.
Helo-Pilot is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2012, 11:16
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Helo-Pilot,
Do they have FAA accredited courses for the shooters?

Over here we call them a platform course. far more complex than the initial and five yearly renewal of a firearms license which usually only allows from the ground shooting and either pistols, bolt action or pump action centre fires plus all the rimfires of course.

The flying test on the platform course involves a timed circuit of twenty or so cut out targets the size of a cow with a balloon wedged in one or two holes in each target, cut out in the head / heart position. When I was doing them they required a pass rate of 95%. Not so easy when them wooden critters don't move and consequently they are converging or diverging from each target. I always put the target nice and close.

They have to be accredted with CASA and the local Police department (firearms section) Each state has different rules as to how long a shooter can be licensed to drive a semi auto so it's very confusing and obstructive in some states, especially Queensland.


Also unlike the video, if they didn't immediately clear that gun completely with the mag out before it was brought back inside it was an automatic fail. A lot of our shooters were ex vietnam dudes, they could clear a gun quicker than a wink and be lighting a fag and always knew exactly how many rounds left in the mag.

The reason for that was simple apart from common sense, it wasn't unusual to have a gun stutter a bit when it got hot and a gun making loud noises inside the cab was not on.

Are the pilots required to be mustering endorsed or just low level endorsed?

Most of our feral animal control contracts stipulate at least 1500 hours PIC mustering /shooting or similar such as Ag work. It is usual though that most pilots on this sort of work would be minimum 5,000 hours mustering / shooting.

And oh yeah, we have a saying, the bigger the hat the smaller the sheep station, some hats of which have to be seen to be believed. Not that I know anything much about sheep, they stink too much.

Cattle blokes just wear hats they can get about in the scrub with on a bolter easy, keep the sun of, flog that horse or quickly take a bulls mind off his maybe bad attituide from time to time as one steps sideways.

They are always flash enough though to sell to a tourist for a few hundred bucks when you're strapped for a quid, especially when they have a bit of blood an gore on them.

cheers tet

I nearly forgot, you got a boss that wants to fly in front of the line of fire, get a new boss, no questions.
topendtorque is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2012, 12:33
  #39 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,290
Received 515 Likes on 215 Posts
Simple answer is NO....as we are not a Nanny State or People's Republic of....yet.

Until the Hawgs are considered "Game" under the Hunting Laws...no licenses required.

No licenses required for the guns.....and probably not any time soon either. If one is shooting an "Automatic (read machine-gun) then a Federal License is required (400 USD per weapon as I recall).

The FAA under Part 135 might have some purview but if the activity is not "commercial" then not then either....beyond the usual Part 61 and 91 rules.

Remember what personal freedom was all about? Ours is being chipped away at bit by bit particularly under the current administration but we still have quite a bit yet.

Despite all those endorsements, training, protocols, regulations, laws, tariffs, and procedures.....you still have mustering accidents....and make things complicated and expensive as all Hell. I reckon we should stick to our method....simple...cheap...effective.

You are using one video to pass judgement on everyone that is doing the Hawg Shooting.....perhaps others do it a bit differently...and maybe even those in the video have changed their methods...as no one intentionally goes out to get hurt. If they do....then no matter how many rules, tests, etc....you require...they are going to succeed in doing so.
SASless is online now  
Old 7th Feb 2012, 13:15
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,959
Received 50 Likes on 15 Posts
To add to SASless's comments, if one is doing this work for the government--ie as part of a Department Of Interior contract, then yes, there is training and a checkride required.
Gordy is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.