UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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Only 24 hour units past 0400. Hadn't got as far as the Xmas roster 
The drop to 9 hour shifts is necessary else we work too many hours in a year. Hence we lose 23 days off per year
The drop to 9 hour shifts is necessary else we work too many hours in a year. Hence we lose 23 days off per year
Last edited by Letsby Avenue; 3rd Apr 2012 at 11:28.
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4/3/4/3 roster
Hi
The roster you described exceeds the 60 hour rule (63 on each block of 7 x 9).
Because the first day after nights is PART of a day off you only have 3 days off then 2 off - NOT 4 and 3 as described - 'A single day off shall include 2 local nights'.
Annual days off 86.9 and every 3 months = 21.73!
The 21 day roster you describe equates to 2190 annual hours and a 42.12 hour week.
It would also give less time coverage to an area and make the requirement for floaters increase.
At the moment it appears that those regions that do not have a 24 hour unit, will only have 3 pilots (NPAS) each - the rest being covered by floaters. You have to run 10 hour shifts to get the maximum time per area and minimise floaters - those areas with multiple types will be hardest hit by this way of managing the rosters - IF you do the math, those units, to run at maximum efficiency will actually need 4 pilots per unit minimum still with a need for floaters and give the full 24 hour coverage with 20 hour bases doing 10 hour maximum rosters. I guess it will be a different matter if the only goal is to save money and not honour the commitment to provide 20 hours from a unit.
This still does not take into account the 15 minutes pre and post flight requirement of the present FTL or any handover period?
The roster you described exceeds the 60 hour rule (63 on each block of 7 x 9).
Because the first day after nights is PART of a day off you only have 3 days off then 2 off - NOT 4 and 3 as described - 'A single day off shall include 2 local nights'.
Annual days off 86.9 and every 3 months = 21.73!
The 21 day roster you describe equates to 2190 annual hours and a 42.12 hour week.
It would also give less time coverage to an area and make the requirement for floaters increase.
At the moment it appears that those regions that do not have a 24 hour unit, will only have 3 pilots (NPAS) each - the rest being covered by floaters. You have to run 10 hour shifts to get the maximum time per area and minimise floaters - those areas with multiple types will be hardest hit by this way of managing the rosters - IF you do the math, those units, to run at maximum efficiency will actually need 4 pilots per unit minimum still with a need for floaters and give the full 24 hour coverage with 20 hour bases doing 10 hour maximum rosters. I guess it will be a different matter if the only goal is to save money and not honour the commitment to provide 20 hours from a unit.
This still does not take into account the 15 minutes pre and post flight requirement of the present FTL or any handover period?
The Fresh Start Club
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FTLs are going to be the primary concern, but looking at that roster it also presents problems for the observers hours.
If each shift is nine hours then over a three week period the observers would work 126 hours, six over their duty time. A quick call to Sussex shows how they fit into this roster:
08:00 - 16:30 (8.5 hrs) for early shifts Mon to Sat
16:00 - 01:00 (9 hrs) for late shifts Mon to Sat
09:00 - 16:30 (7.5 hrs) for early shifts on Sun
16:00 - 23:30 (7.5 hrs) for late shifts on Sun
That totals 120 hours over the three weeks and allows for a half an hour handover. Looking at it I don't like the later shift option to allow for 20 hour coverage across the bases, as the late base would need to work something like this:
10:00 - 18:30 (8.5 hrs) for early shifts Mon to Sat
19:00 - 04:00 (9 hrs) for late shifts Mon to Sat
11:00 - 18:30 (7.5 hrs) for early shifts on Sun
19:00 - 02:30 (7.5 hrs) for late shifts on Sun
That plays havoc with the FTLs as already indicated, and I think most people would want to be on the earlier shifts as there's no working after 01:00!
Why can't they run with a six on four off, six on five off pattern (EEELLLRRREEELLLRRRRR) which needs seven observers and three and half pilots (six shifts not covered in a three week cycle)? This provides 20 hour coverage at each of the bases and requires very little increase in staffing over the nine hour shift pattern above. I know I've said increase when everything is realistically all about decreasing, but why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar?
If each shift is nine hours then over a three week period the observers would work 126 hours, six over their duty time. A quick call to Sussex shows how they fit into this roster:
08:00 - 16:30 (8.5 hrs) for early shifts Mon to Sat
16:00 - 01:00 (9 hrs) for late shifts Mon to Sat
09:00 - 16:30 (7.5 hrs) for early shifts on Sun
16:00 - 23:30 (7.5 hrs) for late shifts on Sun
That totals 120 hours over the three weeks and allows for a half an hour handover. Looking at it I don't like the later shift option to allow for 20 hour coverage across the bases, as the late base would need to work something like this:
10:00 - 18:30 (8.5 hrs) for early shifts Mon to Sat
19:00 - 04:00 (9 hrs) for late shifts Mon to Sat
11:00 - 18:30 (7.5 hrs) for early shifts on Sun
19:00 - 02:30 (7.5 hrs) for late shifts on Sun
That plays havoc with the FTLs as already indicated, and I think most people would want to be on the earlier shifts as there's no working after 01:00!
Why can't they run with a six on four off, six on five off pattern (EEELLLRRREEELLLRRRRR) which needs seven observers and three and half pilots (six shifts not covered in a three week cycle)? This provides 20 hour coverage at each of the bases and requires very little increase in staffing over the nine hour shift pattern above. I know I've said increase when everything is realistically all about decreasing, but why spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar?
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That 0400 finish would be a goodbye from me.... All regional bases (not 24hr) will be three pilot bases (goodbye Chief Pilots) so leave applications will have to be approved centrally by the regional CP and I'm betting there won't be enough slack in the system to get everyone's leave in, unless of course we're converting each Day's leave to hours like the bobbies. So there's another hit on time off.
I agree Gas Generator but sadly this is an already approved roster... Pilots are getting squeezed till the pips squeak. It will be interesting to see how Bank Holidays are managed?
I agree Gas Generator but sadly this is an already approved roster... Pilots are getting squeezed till the pips squeak. It will be interesting to see how Bank Holidays are managed?
Last edited by Letsby Avenue; 3rd Apr 2012 at 15:54.
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I know a few observers (a couple who have ten years or more experience) who are now thinking that it's time to depart air ops. Reasons range from security and stability to better work life balance and money/promotion. One is actively looking to leave the police altogether, although that's to do with Winsor as much as NPAS.
Chatting to them they reckon they've had a good run on air ops, and don't want to be part of an national aerial missing persons and senior officer a75e covering service!
Part of the trouble is the uncertainty from a lack of hard information, or definite answers. Between NPAS and Winsor there is a very real chance that in a few short years there will be no experience, or possibly even police officers, on board police aircraft in the UK.
Chatting to them they reckon they've had a good run on air ops, and don't want to be part of an national aerial missing persons and senior officer a75e covering service!
Part of the trouble is the uncertainty from a lack of hard information, or definite answers. Between NPAS and Winsor there is a very real chance that in a few short years there will be no experience, or possibly even police officers, on board police aircraft in the UK.
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Windle,
It is possible that the outcome you mention in the last sentence of your post is the intention of all this inaction. After all, the driving force behind this initiative is to save money. With fewer aircraft they will need fewer crew of all categories. They think they may also save money by employing monkeys with their dietary requirements. It costs nothing to deal with resigning staff; those who are made redundant are different.
[I am not suggesting for a moment that OD would be associated with such a stance].
It is possible that the outcome you mention in the last sentence of your post is the intention of all this inaction. After all, the driving force behind this initiative is to save money. With fewer aircraft they will need fewer crew of all categories. They think they may also save money by employing monkeys with their dietary requirements. It costs nothing to deal with resigning staff; those who are made redundant are different.
[I am not suggesting for a moment that OD would be associated with such a stance].
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So really, all we have is another 'In Principle' sign up.
Police Air Support: The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012 - WMS
This written ministerial statement on the provision of police air support was laid in the House of Commons on 27 March 2012 by Nick Herbert, and in the House of Lords by Lord Henley.
The Minister of State for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert): My right honourable Friend the Home Secretary has today laid before the House a draft of The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012.
This Order requires the police service to collaborate in the provision of air support through a single collaboration agreement.
I have consulted the Police Service about the proposed Order and, having carefully considered the responses received, I have decided to make the Order.
In 2009 Bernard Hogan-Howe, then Chief Constable of Merseyside, carried out a review of the arrangements for police air support for the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). This identified scope to rationalise the current patchwork of provision and make savings, as well as ensuring a consistent level of air support across England and Wales.
On the basis of that review, the National Police Air Service (NPAS) project has been led by Chief Constable Alex Marshall and has the full support of ACPO. The advantages of NPAS include the following:
It will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days year in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days a time while they are being repaired.
97 per cent of the population of England and Wales will remain within 20 minutes' flying time.
It will also save the police service £15m per year when fully operational.
Chief Constables of all forces in England and Wales have given their support to the proposal for NPAS. The vast majority of police authorities have also given support in principle. However, realisation of the full benefits available through NPAS depends upon the commitment of the whole of the police service in England and Wales. These proposals have been under discussion for over two years. It is time for the Police Service to move on from considering the principle and to focus on agreeing the details of a collaborative approach. This Order will ensure such a focus.
While the Government has removed central targets from the police and is giving elected police and crime commissioners the power to set local strategic priorities, it has also introduced new powers under the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to ensure that forces work effectively together. This is the first use of new powers brought in by the Act.
This written ministerial statement on the provision of police air support was laid in the House of Commons on 27 March 2012 by Nick Herbert, and in the House of Lords by Lord Henley.
The Minister of State for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert): My right honourable Friend the Home Secretary has today laid before the House a draft of The Police (Collaboration: Specified Function) Order 2012.
This Order requires the police service to collaborate in the provision of air support through a single collaboration agreement.
I have consulted the Police Service about the proposed Order and, having carefully considered the responses received, I have decided to make the Order.
In 2009 Bernard Hogan-Howe, then Chief Constable of Merseyside, carried out a review of the arrangements for police air support for the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO). This identified scope to rationalise the current patchwork of provision and make savings, as well as ensuring a consistent level of air support across England and Wales.
On the basis of that review, the National Police Air Service (NPAS) project has been led by Chief Constable Alex Marshall and has the full support of ACPO. The advantages of NPAS include the following:
It will give all forces access to helicopter support 24 hours a day, 365 days year in contrast to the current system which sees some force helicopters grounded for days a time while they are being repaired.
97 per cent of the population of England and Wales will remain within 20 minutes' flying time.
It will also save the police service £15m per year when fully operational.
Chief Constables of all forces in England and Wales have given their support to the proposal for NPAS. The vast majority of police authorities have also given support in principle. However, realisation of the full benefits available through NPAS depends upon the commitment of the whole of the police service in England and Wales. These proposals have been under discussion for over two years. It is time for the Police Service to move on from considering the principle and to focus on agreeing the details of a collaborative approach. This Order will ensure such a focus.
While the Government has removed central targets from the police and is giving elected police and crime commissioners the power to set local strategic priorities, it has also introduced new powers under the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to ensure that forces work effectively together. This is the first use of new powers brought in by the Act.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Theres not yet people on the pitch, but they seem to be gathering.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I believe the Winsor report doesn't apply to Scotland.
Pity really, because if it did, I wonder if their crews would be classed as 'specialists' or not.
Police-air-teams-copter-capture-in-hunt-for-countrys-fugitives
A quick google brought me to;
e·lite/iˈlēt/Noun:
1.A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth.
2.A size of letter in typewriting, with 12 characters to the inch (about 4.7 to the centimeter).
Maintaining the football references, Scotland 1 - England & Wales 2
Pity really, because if it did, I wonder if their crews would be classed as 'specialists' or not.
Police-air-teams-copter-capture-in-hunt-for-countrys-fugitives
AN elite cop chopper squad is the last line of defence against Scotlands fugitive crooks.
A fugitive thief cowers in long grass under cover of darkness but thanks to Scotlands elite police helicopter squad, theres nowhere to hide.
"Highly trained officers"...
etc
A fugitive thief cowers in long grass under cover of darkness but thanks to Scotlands elite police helicopter squad, theres nowhere to hide.
"Highly trained officers"...
etc
A quick google brought me to;
e·lite/iˈlēt/Noun:
1.A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth.
2.A size of letter in typewriting, with 12 characters to the inch (about 4.7 to the centimeter).
Maintaining the football references, Scotland 1 - England & Wales 2
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Please can I clear something up. Who decides what is a specialist role or not?
According to at least one English Force;
http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/f...MOEP.asp?id=45
And another...
The first police helicopters
Introduction | Devon & Cornwall Police
Just click on 'Helicopter'
And to add one of Wales'forces to the list;
Who we are and what we do
According to at least one English Force;
Specialist Roles
A OCU-Operations
Specialist - Recommendation
All Force Traffic Units - Management Scrutiny
Camera Enforcement Unit - Management Scrutiny
Air Operations - Management Scrutiny
Firearms Operations - Management Scrutiny
Force Communication Centre - Management Scrutiny
Stolen Vehicle Squad - Management Scrutiny
Crash Investigation - Management Scrutiny
Public Order Training - Management Scrutiny
Driving School - Management Scrutiny
OSU - Fixed Term 5 years
Airport Firearms - Management Scrutiny
Dog Training - Management Scrutiny
Dog Handlers - Management Scrutiny
Airport Police Unit - Management Scrutiny
All other 'A' OCU posts - Management Scrutiny
A OCU-Operations
Specialist - Recommendation
All Force Traffic Units - Management Scrutiny
Camera Enforcement Unit - Management Scrutiny
Air Operations - Management Scrutiny
Firearms Operations - Management Scrutiny
Force Communication Centre - Management Scrutiny
Stolen Vehicle Squad - Management Scrutiny
Crash Investigation - Management Scrutiny
Public Order Training - Management Scrutiny
Driving School - Management Scrutiny
OSU - Fixed Term 5 years
Airport Firearms - Management Scrutiny
Dog Training - Management Scrutiny
Dog Handlers - Management Scrutiny
Airport Police Unit - Management Scrutiny
All other 'A' OCU posts - Management Scrutiny
And another...
In 1986, the Thames Valley Police Air Support Unit relocated to RAF Abingdon and was allocated a budget of 650 flying hours per annum. In 1988, it was recognised that the role of observer was a specialist skill and a team of fully trained, full-time dedicated observers was created.
Within this section of the website you can find information on some of our specialist teams and units.
Just click on 'Helicopter'
And to add one of Wales'forces to the list;
■Operational Support Services
North Wales Police includes the services of dedicated and specialist teams of officers. Operational Support provides tactical and operational response to incidents. These include:
■Operational Planning
■Armed Response
■Air Operations (Helicopter)
■Dogs
■Firearms Training
■Go Safe
■Custody
North Wales Police includes the services of dedicated and specialist teams of officers. Operational Support provides tactical and operational response to incidents. These include:
■Operational Planning
■Armed Response
■Air Operations (Helicopter)
■Dogs
■Firearms Training
■Go Safe
■Custody
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
And to top it all off, it appears that even the NPIA disagree with the specialist classification of the Observer role made by the Winsor report.
NPIA: Fitness Standards for Specialist Roles
..including Air Support !
Final report, dated 22 Jan 2012, here;
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...RY_rtYfFMeXANg
In Appendix 3 Specialist Policing Roles/Duties Definitions, we find Air Support(AS)
p.s. Don't mention that the Winsor report itself currently refers to Air Support as a specialist role!
NPIA: Fitness Standards for Specialist Roles
On the 18 January 2012 the Chief's Constables Council agreed to support new job related fitness tests for specialist posts which were developed by the Police Advisory Board for England and Wales Fitness Working Group. They include fitness standards for 13 specialist posts...
Final report, dated 22 Jan 2012, here;
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...RY_rtYfFMeXANg
In Appendix 3 Specialist Policing Roles/Duties Definitions, we find Air Support(AS)
p.s. Don't mention that the Winsor report itself currently refers to Air Support as a specialist role!
This 'band of the super fit fixation is the sort of misguided leadership caused by a hierarchy with little of no real knowledge of policing as it is done.
Having arrived into fast track promotion direct from Uni or spent years wandering around Uni in the Job's time getting a Degree in Criminology as perceived by a non-police person they have this vision of fit young things hurtling around the streets [and running straight into trouble] as their perfect police officer.
When crime was low and inevitably solved to a high percentage level it was undertaking by heavy smoking and drinking 'plodders' not fit whizz kids. They thought about their actions before they undertook them. No-one runs into an incident, you arrive at a walk gaining inteligence about the situation with every carefully placed pace.
There are parallels. Air support gains most information in the hover at 2,000 feet not by whizzing in at 150mph to 200 feet.
I believe you only need to look at the relative crime figures to gain an indication which system actually worked.
Having arrived into fast track promotion direct from Uni or spent years wandering around Uni in the Job's time getting a Degree in Criminology as perceived by a non-police person they have this vision of fit young things hurtling around the streets [and running straight into trouble] as their perfect police officer.
When crime was low and inevitably solved to a high percentage level it was undertaking by heavy smoking and drinking 'plodders' not fit whizz kids. They thought about their actions before they undertook them. No-one runs into an incident, you arrive at a walk gaining inteligence about the situation with every carefully placed pace.
There are parallels. Air support gains most information in the hover at 2,000 feet not by whizzing in at 150mph to 200 feet.
I believe you only need to look at the relative crime figures to gain an indication which system actually worked.
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on the other hand it could be that organisations have a duty of care over their staff now under H&S legislation (That was no where to be seen in the days PANews refers to) as part of the duty of care staff should be 'fit for purpose' any fitness test is just to show that the individual is physiologically fit enough not physically fit enough for duty.
Wagging finger - it's not really duty of care, as that implies that someone does actually care - it is ass covering so you can't sue them if you have a heart attack during the course of your duties.
If there was a real duty of care they would ensure that the police officers they employ are 'fit for purpose' - they would not be employing people physically unable to look after themselves. To short, too weak etc. to look after themselves so they need to supply CS gas and tasers to acheive basic defence ..... and then they whinge when that provision goes wrong and the crims get more injuries than a simple tustle would have created.
All their theorising and PC activities, often promoted by political motives, fails to cover the most basic of H&S considerations.
All their theorising and PC activities, often promoted by political motives, fails to cover the most basic of H&S considerations.
Ah but then you fall foul of discrimination against those who are too small, weak etc so you can't win
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Helinut,
Thanks for the email, your supposition was correct. Will reply shortly and no doubt we can sort something out.
Whilst I don't think that it's necessarily a deliberate strategy, I have no doubt that they realise it's a likely eventuality, and will undoubtedly be happy when it happens, as it will make life much easier. That is unless everyone goes, which as already alluded to by others, is almost certain to happen in 2016, if not before, should Mr Winsor get his way. Is half a dozen or so civilian observers enough to run NPAS?
D-Day is fast approaching in the South East, and management are obviously concerned that people will vote with their feet, because they've now stated that they will not allow people to leave for other posts, pending the move to NPAS in October! Funny how this paragraph is in contradiction with the first. It's also funny that people who think they have the best job in the police are wanting to leave!
Only a few months to go and there's no information, let alone decisions, regarding aircraft, staffing and operational hours. Lots of "preferred options" and "considerations" but nothing hard and fast.
Without wishing to be emotive, it's not just air operations they're playing with, it's people's lives.
WP
Thanks for the email, your supposition was correct. Will reply shortly and no doubt we can sort something out.
Whilst I don't think that it's necessarily a deliberate strategy, I have no doubt that they realise it's a likely eventuality, and will undoubtedly be happy when it happens, as it will make life much easier. That is unless everyone goes, which as already alluded to by others, is almost certain to happen in 2016, if not before, should Mr Winsor get his way. Is half a dozen or so civilian observers enough to run NPAS?
D-Day is fast approaching in the South East, and management are obviously concerned that people will vote with their feet, because they've now stated that they will not allow people to leave for other posts, pending the move to NPAS in October! Funny how this paragraph is in contradiction with the first. It's also funny that people who think they have the best job in the police are wanting to leave!
Only a few months to go and there's no information, let alone decisions, regarding aircraft, staffing and operational hours. Lots of "preferred options" and "considerations" but nothing hard and fast.
Without wishing to be emotive, it's not just air operations they're playing with, it's people's lives.
WP