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The cost of balls out self funded, 0 to twin IR !

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The cost of balls out self funded, 0 to twin IR !

Old 2nd Nov 2011, 10:15
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The cost of balls out self funded, 0 to twin IR !

Morning Ladies and Gentlemen,

Just been bored searching a few sites in the uk, and was wondering what does it cost now for the standard civilian to start and finish his training in the uk.

I will set the parameters at : PPL(H)
CPL(H)
FI (H) optional dependent on career path.
MULTI ENGINE rating
IR M.E

And now that VAT has gone up to 20% I think, been out of the country for to long to pay her majesty anything. The average joe bloggs that gets sucked in by the full golden sell of certain establishments, to be an offshore captain in a few years, will spend anything from 75,000 pounds to 95,000 pounds. I wonder how many people finance their houses and sell the wife just to get the possibility of a career.

I stand to be corrected about my pricing, but just wanted to get a more realistic costing for the end of 2011. Has generally the training industry seen a downturn this year, or become stable with people walking through the door saying " I want to be a helicopter please ! "


Fluffy 5
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 10:20
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I'd guess at: £85000 + vat?
Thomas coupling is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2011, 10:23
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Originally Posted by fluffy5
" I want to be a helicopter please ! "
Most people doing this are redirected to the psych office (probably conveniently located. There appears to be no downturn in that industry)

Sorry. thread drift in 3 moves...
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 10:43
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I reckon closer to £100,000 + VAT if you are going IR and FI....

What's the prize for the closest guess

Who believes the "golden sell of an offshore Captain in a few years"
tony 1969 is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2011, 12:05
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For the IR at least, it makes a lot of sense to go train somewhere that doesn't stick VAT on top. The total cost also depends on how/where you do your hour-building - doing some of this overseas can help significantly, as can finding a friendly private owner who will do you a deal.

Some recent approximate costs (all courses assume minimum hours):
ATPL ground school + theory exams + initial class 1 medical: £3500
CPL(H) flight training including night rating and test: £11500(ish)
ME IR(H), done outside the UK, including twin rating: £38000

So, leaving aside the PPL and hourbuilding up to 155 hours, you're looking at around £53k. I believe a PPL in a R22 costs around £15k at the moment, so that's £68k, plus the cost of 100ish hours. Allowing £15k for the hour building takes you to £83k.

So I'd say £85k is a reasonable ball-park estimate. This number doesn't take account of additional ratings, or the bargaining skills of the individual in getting better hour-building rates. It assumes everything is done in minimum hours, with no resits. And it doesn't include an FI rating.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 12:16
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Assuming minimum hours, all the training in the UK, R22 @ £336 per hour inc VAT per hour for training and £300 per hour inc VAT for SFH, I reckon it's pushing £150k for FI and IR. I've allowed £45k for the IR in total and £6k for theory courses and exam and flight test fees.

Cheers

Whirls
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 12:34
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Having done it all in the past... I would say Whirlygig has the most accurate figure with 150K.... that is certainly around the figure it cost me (or the bank depending on who’s money you consider it was...).
Lioncopter is offline  
Old 2nd Nov 2011, 14:04
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Mein Gott! Surely this includes VAT???
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 14:43
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To be fair... Yes it does include VAT.
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Old 2nd Nov 2011, 16:46
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Assuming minimum hours, all the training in the UK, R22 @ £336 per hour inc VAT per hour for training and £300 per hour inc VAT for SFH, I reckon it's pushing £150k for FI and IR. I've allowed £45k for the IR in total and £6k for theory courses and exam and flight test fees.
and very good value it is too, flying and exams are easy (especiallly the IR), very little risk with loads of jobs at the end of it, all in all a very wise investment I would say, c'mon down lets get training!

although it has gone up slighly from the £40k nett, I paid in the 1990s, which got me PPL,FI,CPL (in that order) and in those days there was no need to pay for an IR as they were not generally required up front. and we had NVQ tax relief which knocked about £10k off and you could claim back VAT (hopefully you still can) that was good for about £7k.

I guess new people need daddys (or mummys) money again these days whereas we managed it ourselves at the time, although we did moan about it then too!

Last edited by Camp Freddie; 2nd Nov 2011 at 17:08.
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 00:53
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No one has mentioned the nervous breakdown and divorce yet.
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 02:50
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Look on the bright side though - if it does lead to divorce, he/she can't blag you for all your money coz you won't have any!
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 07:12
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£110k including VAT, finished it all in 2006. Now flying offshore in a strange land, so yes, it ain't cheap! Not divorced quite yet.
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 09:06
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So we could estimate that in a ten year period the cost of changing a complete career path has almost doubled in cost. I wonder if the salary has doubled in cost. Some instructors would remember being paid 20 pounds an hour some time ago...
Also the offshore captain salary ten or so years ago....... has that doubled ?

So we could say in general, that the end of 2011 the full cost 150k inc vat.

fluffy
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 09:27
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20% VAT what a rip off.

I left the UK seven and a half years ago and I won't be back. Tony and his loonies definately took over the asylum (seeker) and bankrupt the country.

And Gordon Brown should be arrested for treason.

You're better off spending your hard earned offshore and at least having the chance of getting a flying job somewhere.
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 09:55
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and yes I am aware that the 'current' government raised the VAT to 20%! That's what happens when you inherit a bankrupt economy.
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 10:21
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It's got progressively harder/more expensive to become a helicopter pilot in the UK.

Instructor wages (about £45 per hour) have been static for ten years

Anyone here remember when PPLs could instruct?!

Anyone here remember when you didn't need an IR to fly offshore?

Anyone here remember the NVQ tax deal?

Anyone remember when UK flight schools didn't go bust every 5 minutes? (too many to list here!)

Anyone here remember when you could instruct in the USA with 170 hours and no FAA IR?

Anyone here remember when charter flights in the UK were all done on single engine machines?

First JAA, now EASA...

It doesn't seem to be getting any better....

I wouldn't recommend anyone to become a pilot these days. Too many pilots around (low/high timers and ex-mil) and not enough jobs due to the economy and over regulation.

Go into Finance, or Health and Safety, or go work for the CAA. Better hours, better pay, more security. And fly for fun at weekends.
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 10:52
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It's difficult to put a number on this, as it really depends on the route you take. If you go integrated, as an example, the main school in Scandinavia will do zero to CPL for roughly £65k plus incidentals. An IR with them adds around £35k, so approx £100k all in.

If you start out with a clear, multi-year plan (and stick to it), you can get it done for less. I know, I've done it! I started with a 4 year plan which became a 5ish year plan, and prices were definately lower when I started. My route was PPL, hour building, ATPL ground, CPL, IR. All flight training was in minimum or near-minimum hours. I was very lucky in my first career, so with some planning, I finished with no debt. I worked very hard to get the hour-building costs down, and with some luck and a lot of running around, and some help from others, I had some amazing experiences and got some very cheap hours.

I estimate my total costs at between £85k and £90k. I haven't added up the final bill yet - I'd prefer not to know - but it's definately 'could have bought a house' money. There are ways to reduce the costs, if you're prepared to take the initiative and do the legwork. If I was starting today, I guess £95k - £100k would be a reasonable guess.
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 11:00
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I can't think of any other profession that you can spend £100,000 to get qualified, and there are not many jobs around. Can you?

Has anyone any anecdotal evidence of the numbers of people who are going through the CPL system? (Bristow academy etc).

Will there be a shortgage in a few years due to people not training? Or will there always be a core group of people with rich parents willing to bankroll them?
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Old 3rd Nov 2011, 12:47
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I searched on the CAA website without success, but they used to publish a table of all the different ratings issued each year, this included initial Helicopter IR's. They also used to publish the number of ATPL (H)'s they issued as well.I hope you have better luck finding them than I did.

I would guess that the FAA might do similar.
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