Private chopper coppers
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Private chopper coppers
South Yorkshire is losing its MD902 and it's brought up a semi-serious conversation over a lunch.
Since the Air Ambulance's are all (rightly) run through charitable donation are there any real obstacles standing in the way of operating a police helicopter in the same way?
Since the Air Ambulance's are all (rightly) run through charitable donation are there any real obstacles standing in the way of operating a police helicopter in the same way?
Very good question, eltonioni, although it need not be just charitable donation, it could be through corporate sponsorship. It it reminds me that Dorset have long since carried sponsor logo(s) - see the red logo for Key Industrial Equipment below...
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Sponsored choppers
When I put together the proposal for the AA in Cornwall in 1986 the contract with the local NHS Trust made provision for us to raise corporate sponsorship. This had a great deal of potential but unfortunately the process was hi-jacked by the local NHS manager who did it all wrong and we never did get much serious interest. Had they followed the WH Smith guidelines for corporate sponsorship which were available at the time through WH Smiths the book and paper shop, they would have been pointed in the direction of professional sponsorship raisers who specialise in working with marketing people to generate the required funds.
Maybe if funds were raised under the banner of 'Civil Defence' and made available to Police and Fire/Rescue you could get some takers. My motto has always been that 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing..... and of course nothing ventured nothing gained. If I had listened to all the nay-sayers back in '86 the we would never have gotten the UK's first AA of the ground and look what happened in it's wake.
G.
Maybe if funds were raised under the banner of 'Civil Defence' and made available to Police and Fire/Rescue you could get some takers. My motto has always been that 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing..... and of course nothing ventured nothing gained. If I had listened to all the nay-sayers back in '86 the we would never have gotten the UK's first AA of the ground and look what happened in it's wake.
G.
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 7th Sep 2011 at 18:55.
Surely Police helicopters should be funded from taxation if they are really needed.
Planemike
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As the nature of the police helicopter is seeing things from the air they don't need IFR capability so should use singles like they do in the USA bringing the costs down considerably. I'm sure some jobs can be done by cheaper fixed wings as well like the Northumbria Islander used to.
In the same way that the police now run sensible cars like Skodas and Cheaper 4x4s when they previously nearly always had top of the range BMW's and Range Rovers there must be a case for running cheaper helicopters.
Look at the success of Mike Smith's Robbo TV ships and tell me why that couldn't be used in a lot of the Police requirements. (Legislation apart - which could be changed).
In the same way that the police now run sensible cars like Skodas and Cheaper 4x4s when they previously nearly always had top of the range BMW's and Range Rovers there must be a case for running cheaper helicopters.
Look at the success of Mike Smith's Robbo TV ships and tell me why that couldn't be used in a lot of the Police requirements. (Legislation apart - which could be changed).
A well equipped fixed wing like the Soloy Sentinal can do 90% of the patrol and surveilance work performed by a twin engined helicopter, at a fraction of the price. That's up front procurement price, maintenance and overhaul price, crew training price and fuel price. As suggested above 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing, well 90% of something is much better than 100% of nothing, especially if it's at 40% of the cost.
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Isn't there something called "victim tax"?
Gemini twin, it's an old argument. It's ineligible for police work in UK because of the legal requirement for two engines.
Gemini twin, it's an old argument. It's ineligible for police work in UK because of the legal requirement for two engines.
Bit of a Catch 22 situation then, when the only thing regulated to do the job is beyond the means of taxpayer funding.
Maybe sponsorship is the answer - "This law enforcement flight sponsored by Ambien. Woken up a nights by police helicopters try Ambien for a perfect nights sleep".
Maybe sponsorship is the answer - "This law enforcement flight sponsored by Ambien. Woken up a nights by police helicopters try Ambien for a perfect nights sleep".
Whatever happened to that Optica thingy? Saw one in the air once near Brum, think the local plod were trialling it at the time. Cheaper to operate than your average chopper I'd have thought?
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EddieHeli:
Whatever makes you think the 'twin' stipulation is driven by a requirement for an IFR capability? (Though if you think you only need IFR skills when you're in cloud, you are very wrong!)
The twin requirement is driven by the fact that the aircraft needs to operate over congested areas, by both day and night! You may wish to compare the relevant accident stats between UK police, and US police helos.
Having lost an engine over the centre of a very large northern city one dark night, at lowish level, I'm certainly glad I had two!
As well as being a police helicopter pilot over some considerable years, I also flew the Northumbria Islander. You and other posters here are correct that a fixed wing can do a large percent of the work, at a small percent of the cost. However it was definitely more difficult for a police officer to give accurate commentaries, and would certainly have benefited from the addition of a nitesun or similar.
Shame South Yorks have pulled the plug. I hope their short sightedness isn't a sign of things to come!
the nature of the police helicopter is seeing things from the air they don't need IFR capability so should use singles like they do in the USA bringing the costs down considerably. I'm sure some jobs can be done by cheaper fixed wings as well like the Northumbria Islander used to.
The twin requirement is driven by the fact that the aircraft needs to operate over congested areas, by both day and night! You may wish to compare the relevant accident stats between UK police, and US police helos.
Having lost an engine over the centre of a very large northern city one dark night, at lowish level, I'm certainly glad I had two!
As well as being a police helicopter pilot over some considerable years, I also flew the Northumbria Islander. You and other posters here are correct that a fixed wing can do a large percent of the work, at a small percent of the cost. However it was definitely more difficult for a police officer to give accurate commentaries, and would certainly have benefited from the addition of a nitesun or similar.
Shame South Yorks have pulled the plug. I hope their short sightedness isn't a sign of things to come!
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.... are there any real obstacles standing in the way of operating a police helicopter in the same way?
Due to the security aspects of the system, a privately run organisation would not be permitted to
possess or use the equipment needed to communicate with "real" Police Officers on the ground
Fixed wings have their limited uses, and could be cheaper to operate, but there are now only a couple left in operation - which says it all.
They need a runway to take off from and land on ( with the inevitable waiting for clearance to do so - unless it's a life threatening job ),
they can't land at the scene of most incidents, e.g. to arrest or Casevac, or hand over urgent recordings etc,
and can't hover very well without a reasonable head wind !
After Communications funding would definitely be the next biggest hurdle :
Aircraft purchase / leasing costs, Role equipment purchase, Operating base, Staff including UEO & Deputy,
Chief Pilot, Line Pilots, Observers, TRAINING, Maintenance, and obtaining an AOC of some sort from the CAA.
In principle I like the idea of taxing the bad guys, but in reality how many of them could afford to pay
( and therefore wouldn't pay ) the DOC's for the flight time that led to their prosecution ?
Privately / Charitably run Police Air support Unit(s) ? Nice thought but hey - it ain't gonna happen
Coconutty - IMHO you're missing the point eltonioni was trying to make. This thread is not about private operation of police helicopters, but the feasibility of an alternate funding model.
Plane Mike - I think you're missing a point too. The same "pay for it from taxation" could be said for UK EMS, indeed many do, but the UK EMS sector is much the better for not being tied to the Government purse strings.
The only difficulty I see with sponsorship is the implied approval of the sponsoring company by the police force concerned. What if there was a police helicopter sponsored by News International, for example....?
Another funding idea sprung to mind. In the USofA there are some law enforcement units whose helicopters have been bought out of the "proceeds of crime" ie the cash realisation of selling assets which were obtained by convicted parties through illegal means. Where does that money go to in the UK?
Plane Mike - I think you're missing a point too. The same "pay for it from taxation" could be said for UK EMS, indeed many do, but the UK EMS sector is much the better for not being tied to the Government purse strings.
The only difficulty I see with sponsorship is the implied approval of the sponsoring company by the police force concerned. What if there was a police helicopter sponsored by News International, for example....?
Another funding idea sprung to mind. In the USofA there are some law enforcement units whose helicopters have been bought out of the "proceeds of crime" ie the cash realisation of selling assets which were obtained by convicted parties through illegal means. Where does that money go to in the UK?
Tankertrashnav,
"Whatever happened to that Optica thingy?"
It crashed and killed. Doesn't matter how cheap it is to buy or run, if it crashes it becomes the most expensive thing ever.
4468 - S.Yorks didn't pull the plug, they had it pulled for them. The hole that it leaves is too big, too busy and too far away from the surrounding forces to pick up anything other than planned/slow time tasks. More than half of S.Yorks tasking is within 5 mins of their base.
"Whatever happened to that Optica thingy?"
It crashed and killed. Doesn't matter how cheap it is to buy or run, if it crashes it becomes the most expensive thing ever.
4468 - S.Yorks didn't pull the plug, they had it pulled for them. The hole that it leaves is too big, too busy and too far away from the surrounding forces to pick up anything other than planned/slow time tasks. More than half of S.Yorks tasking is within 5 mins of their base.
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Whatever happened to that Optica thingy?
The design was never taken up and the company went out of business.
Helihub.........
Agree with you about the indepedence of UK EMS funding. In general it works fairly well and the public can see what they are contributing to.
To my mind the Police is an entirely different scenario. We pay our taxes, national and local and in exchange, among other things, we expect to receive protection, part of it provided by the Police. If the Police can't afford to run a helicopter, so be it: we as a society have to manage without.
Really wonder if ALL the Police helicopters can be justified and are necessary. One has the feeling there maybe a bit of "one upmanship" among some of the Police hierachy. One force has a helicopter so the neighbouring forces feel they can't be left out.
Me being cynical........maybe !!
Planemike
Agree with you about the indepedence of UK EMS funding. In general it works fairly well and the public can see what they are contributing to.
To my mind the Police is an entirely different scenario. We pay our taxes, national and local and in exchange, among other things, we expect to receive protection, part of it provided by the Police. If the Police can't afford to run a helicopter, so be it: we as a society have to manage without.
Really wonder if ALL the Police helicopters can be justified and are necessary. One has the feeling there maybe a bit of "one upmanship" among some of the Police hierachy. One force has a helicopter so the neighbouring forces feel they can't be left out.
Me being cynical........maybe !!
Planemike
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Public Service Helicopters
In my opinion we could benefit from the concept of Public Service Helicopters which take on a support role for ALL the emergency services. We need dedicated SAR and HEMS (AA) but there is a role for a good medium/light twin that provides a SAR-Support, AA-backup and 'support to the civil power'.
There are role models in France (Protection Civile) and Germany (Katastrofenschutze). Our problem is the turf war syndrome of "that's my patch - hands off.
There are various roles that police choppers perform that could legitimately be done by such an organisation even if it is 'commercial' rather than para-public such as missing person searches (maybe 30% of police hours?? just guessing!!) and back-up medevac, Police-type phot missions (subject to security issues I know but that could be covered by the disciplinary code for all involved a la Police Community Officers/Special Constables). Maybe some surveillance and assistance to the Fire and Rescue service. Moving their casualty extraction equipment by way of rapid response is an issue I know.
Sponsorship of community help in this way is surely acceptable.
G.
There are role models in France (Protection Civile) and Germany (Katastrofenschutze). Our problem is the turf war syndrome of "that's my patch - hands off.
There are various roles that police choppers perform that could legitimately be done by such an organisation even if it is 'commercial' rather than para-public such as missing person searches (maybe 30% of police hours?? just guessing!!) and back-up medevac, Police-type phot missions (subject to security issues I know but that could be covered by the disciplinary code for all involved a la Police Community Officers/Special Constables). Maybe some surveillance and assistance to the Fire and Rescue service. Moving their casualty extraction equipment by way of rapid response is an issue I know.
Sponsorship of community help in this way is surely acceptable.
G.
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 8th Sep 2011 at 17:08.
"Really wonder if ALL the Police helicopters can be justified and are necessary. One has the feeling there maybe a bit of "one upmanship" among some of the Police hierachy. One force has a helicopter so the neighbouring forces feel they can't be left out."
Planemike. Hit the nail on the head.
Planemike. Hit the nail on the head.
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"Whatever happened to that Optica thingy?"
ShyTorque
The original Optica for the Hants Police Force based at Lee-on-Solent was carrying out Police observation work over Ringwood. It seems as if during operational orbits the Optica went into a deep stall from which they never recovered. The pilot held a PPL (dispensation from CPL for Police Aircraft)
They got another Optica but I seem to remember that it had an engine failure on take off on RW23 at Lee and contrary to all training the pilot managed to turn it 240 degrees and glided to land on RW 35. I think it was Bob R that was the pilot but my memory may not be up to scratch.
I was based at L-o-S with the CG SAR when we took over from the Navy in 1988. I remember that the Optica was still there until 1990 but after Bob's incident the Optica was replaced by a twin engined BN Islander
JohnW
ShyTorque
The original Optica for the Hants Police Force based at Lee-on-Solent was carrying out Police observation work over Ringwood. It seems as if during operational orbits the Optica went into a deep stall from which they never recovered. The pilot held a PPL (dispensation from CPL for Police Aircraft)
They got another Optica but I seem to remember that it had an engine failure on take off on RW23 at Lee and contrary to all training the pilot managed to turn it 240 degrees and glided to land on RW 35. I think it was Bob R that was the pilot but my memory may not be up to scratch.
I was based at L-o-S with the CG SAR when we took over from the Navy in 1988. I remember that the Optica was still there until 1990 but after Bob's incident the Optica was replaced by a twin engined BN Islander
JohnW