Deck Landings
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Go-Around: The big issue with the 'West Navion' was that the DPS failed and the drillship effectively rotated around the heavy submerged drill sting - so its not not directly relavent to an underway tanker.
There was some pretty disgusting abuse hurled at the crew by Flight International's 'expert' who suggested they should have been lashed down on deck (!!) which I'm glad to say was stamped on by several letter writers (including the AAIB).
There was some pretty disgusting abuse hurled at the crew by Flight International's 'expert' who suggested they should have been lashed down on deck (!!) which I'm glad to say was stamped on by several letter writers (including the AAIB).
Sorry to be a bore chaps, theres been a lot of good advice so far on this matter regarding techniques; things that will bite you in the arse etc, however have you considered a few reference publications?
I've also listed a few questions the lawyers will use to try and take your children's inheritance away with:
Did the pilot study CAP 437 Offshore landing Areas Chapter 9 (Vessels) and/or the International Chamber of shipping Guide to Helo/Ship Ops?.
Who is the owning oil company, have they surveyed the helo deck recently and is the helo insurance cover sufficient ? current rates for offshore vessels fully laden plus environmental damages are astronomical.
Did the pilot contact BHAB for advice ?, they might hold a deck survey of the vessel concerned.
Watch out for the flying avoid North of Alexandria Airport over the Mil Academy/Hospital if you are operating that way.
If you are flying pax, are you offshore equipped/floats/ELTs etc?
I said sorry to be a bore, I'm not a lawyer, just a WAFU trying to keep you out of trouble...........enjoy it....
I've also listed a few questions the lawyers will use to try and take your children's inheritance away with:
Did the pilot study CAP 437 Offshore landing Areas Chapter 9 (Vessels) and/or the International Chamber of shipping Guide to Helo/Ship Ops?.
Who is the owning oil company, have they surveyed the helo deck recently and is the helo insurance cover sufficient ? current rates for offshore vessels fully laden plus environmental damages are astronomical.
Did the pilot contact BHAB for advice ?, they might hold a deck survey of the vessel concerned.
Watch out for the flying avoid North of Alexandria Airport over the Mil Academy/Hospital if you are operating that way.
If you are flying pax, are you offshore equipped/floats/ELTs etc?
I said sorry to be a bore, I'm not a lawyer, just a WAFU trying to keep you out of trouble...........enjoy it....
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The knowledge and experience on this forum never ceases to amaze me. I'm only a PPL, so I can only daydream about attempting a deck landing, but reading the advice is fascinating.
BTW, peterperfect's legal advice is good.
Tudor Owen
BTW, peterperfect's legal advice is good.
Tudor Owen
Iconoclast
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When everything goes wrong!!!!!
A friend of mine sent me a miniature movie. It shows a CH-46 coming in very fast to a landing on the deck of a ship (Perhaps an LHA). He approaches the deck at an angle instead of coming to a hover in line with the ships centerline and then moving sideways keeping in line with the ships centerline. His nose gear hit hard and either he bounced or he pulled collective and tried to align with the centerline of his parking space.
In the process he came to a hover with half of his discs over the flight deck and half over the water. As a result he rolled to the left and fell over backwards into the water hitting upside down. It ended there with two high-speed boats heading for the impact point. I have no idea if there was any loss of life. I’m sorry I do not have the URL.
In the process he came to a hover with half of his discs over the flight deck and half over the water. As a result he rolled to the left and fell over backwards into the water hitting upside down. It ended there with two high-speed boats heading for the impact point. I have no idea if there was any loss of life. I’m sorry I do not have the URL.
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6 Marines and one sailor died. The Sea Knight sank after about 40 seconds, and eventually settled on the ocean floor.
The Marines were preparing to rope down onto the deck.
All the crew survived.
Basically it came down to coming in to low and too fast.
The Marines were preparing to rope down onto the deck.
All the crew survived.
Basically it came down to coming in to low and too fast.
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Lu, I've made a number of landings on seismic boats & other vessels with the heliport on the stern. IME, coming in at an angle is the only proper way to do it. You stay out of the turbulence at the stern caused by the wind coming over the ship, and it's just easier for me. The last time I ever tried to land from dead astern was when I tried to do it at night, & the lights on the stern completely blinded me. I don't like coming to a hover & then moving sideways. I do it if it's the only way to land, & it sometimes is on offshore rigs with the heliport on the downwind side & obstacles all around, but not if I have any choice. It just requires too much power to do the hover, & if an engine fails, you're going to be very, very busy.
Hey guys,
Most procedures and practices involving safe deck ops revolve around poor adherence to lessons learned elsewhere, spread the wealth and everyone benefits.
The first thread asked for advice about preventing mishaps to decks, by asking those with experience to contribute. Lets focus on providing advice......we all know the toughest call in aviation is often asking the damn question, lets answer it !!!
Most procedures and practices involving safe deck ops revolve around poor adherence to lessons learned elsewhere, spread the wealth and everyone benefits.
The first thread asked for advice about preventing mishaps to decks, by asking those with experience to contribute. Lets focus on providing advice......we all know the toughest call in aviation is often asking the damn question, lets answer it !!!
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If you are going to hover alongside the ship before landing (waiting for the ships quiescent period) - wait for the 7th wave and the flight deck should steady up, maybe to even within limits!
It does work honest
It does work honest
Iconoclast
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Let's learn from the bears.
Probably the best system devised for landing on a pitching deck is the Bear Trap developed by the Canadians and used on all of the Spruance Class Destroyers in the US Navy. In this system the helicopter is winched down to the deck. The American system further expanded on the design and uses the bear trap as a trolley and it drags the helicopter into the flight deck hangar freeing up the flight deck for the second helicopter.
The system as originally designed, (when I was involved), would compensate for pitching and heaving of the flight deck. When the stern went down the cable would be paid out and when it went up the cable would be reefed in so that the helicopter would be independent of the ships motion. In each case the cable would be reefed in more than it was paid out and eventually the helicopter would be pulled down to the deck.
The system as originally designed, (when I was involved), would compensate for pitching and heaving of the flight deck. When the stern went down the cable would be paid out and when it went up the cable would be reefed in so that the helicopter would be independent of the ships motion. In each case the cable would be reefed in more than it was paid out and eventually the helicopter would be pulled down to the deck.
Vessel take-off and landing
The company I am flying for, is considering landings on oil tankers on a regular basis.
I am a bit concerned about the variety of certifications, helideck trainings, communications procedures .....
Although our main activity is an offshore operation, we have never landed on tankers else than FSO/FPSO (with specialy dedicated helideck modification) untill now.
Does anybody has advise or experience on this matter ?
Thanks !
I am a bit concerned about the variety of certifications, helideck trainings, communications procedures .....
Although our main activity is an offshore operation, we have never landed on tankers else than FSO/FPSO (with specialy dedicated helideck modification) untill now.
Does anybody has advise or experience on this matter ?
Thanks !
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I asked the exact same question a couple of years back and got loads of great answers and help from the folks out there, try and find my post..I think it was titled "Deck landings"
Rick
Rick
Thank you for your answers, this operation is located offshore of Africa, but oil tankers fleet is international. Helicopter is S76. I assume that the same norms (ie cap 437, ICAO annex 14...) than with helidecks ops would apply here, but with some more restrictions.
I already have a brochure "guide to helicopter/ship ops" from the International Chamber of Shipping, but it is vague about sectors and structural resistance.
Sorry Rick, I would like a private message, but I am not clever enough for this facility on this forum
....
I already have a brochure "guide to helicopter/ship ops" from the International Chamber of Shipping, but it is vague about sectors and structural resistance.
Sorry Rick, I would like a private message, but I am not clever enough for this facility on this forum
....
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Can't help you with the regs where you are, but a couple of things I've discovered:
The heliport will be very, very tight. When they tell you "No worries, it's the world's largest tanker", don't believe it. Ship size has nothing to do with heliport size. I've landed very close beside a prop stored on deck, much larger than an S76. In any case, the clear area will be barely enough, with all sorts of pipes, cranes and other odd masses of steel. Make your approach very, very slow, and always be prepared and able to go around.
Practice your slope landings. The decks have a pronounced slope. Not dangerous unless you release the brakes, but do not do that.
Watch out for the ship turning while you're on the deck. The crosswind you landed with can become a tailwind before you're ready to take off.
No matter what the ship's captain says, he can turn it for you so you can get a favorable wind, especially if you have his relief on board and threaten to return to shore.
The heliport will be very, very tight. When they tell you "No worries, it's the world's largest tanker", don't believe it. Ship size has nothing to do with heliport size. I've landed very close beside a prop stored on deck, much larger than an S76. In any case, the clear area will be barely enough, with all sorts of pipes, cranes and other odd masses of steel. Make your approach very, very slow, and always be prepared and able to go around.
Practice your slope landings. The decks have a pronounced slope. Not dangerous unless you release the brakes, but do not do that.
Watch out for the ship turning while you're on the deck. The crosswind you landed with can become a tailwind before you're ready to take off.
No matter what the ship's captain says, he can turn it for you so you can get a favorable wind, especially if you have his relief on board and threaten to return to shore.
These are very valuable informations based on experience, thank you...I myself instinctivly feel reluctant in such operation given these conditions....rotor hazard, lack of room, longer periods in height/speed diagramm,sloped decks, different levels of ground crew training level, vague deck certification. It looks more like aerial work than passenger transportation, with definetly a downgraded level in safety compared with a standard offshore job.
Sorry but I still couldn't find how to "pm" on this forum...
All other infos will be welcome !
Sorry but I still couldn't find how to "pm" on this forum...
All other infos will be welcome !
The moving vessel will create its own wind which can be markedly different from the real surface wind - anything on the vessel (smoke, flags, windsock etc) will give a good indication of this relative wind - this is the one that you want to be pointing into for the landing if possible. The superstructure of the vessel can cause a lot of turbulence which can be very strong so beware - but most tankers seem to have the superstructure at the aft end so it shouldn't affect a HLS mounted amidships.
The vessel can pitch, roll and heave (vertical movement), the bigger the sea the worse it gets and the heave is the one which might catch you out as the deck rises to meet you.
The vessel can pitch, roll and heave (vertical movement), the bigger the sea the worse it gets and the heave is the one which might catch you out as the deck rises to meet you.
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I haven't experienced much heave on VLCCs and ULCCs, especially loaded. A loaded supertanker doesn't move up and down enough to be perceptible, even in fairly high seas. An empty one may roll if the wind is directly abeam, though.
You do want to be aware of the ship's movement as you approach. If you approach from the bow, with the ship moving toward you, the approach can get very steep very quickly, and approaching from the stern means it can get very shallow, as the ship moves underneath you. It's not difficult to adjust to it with some practice, and some forethought, though.
Make sure you have a radio for the marine VHF band, with at least Channel 16 (hailing frequency) and one other, for communicating with the ship. You don't want to land without permission, and without knowing they're ready for you. It's also nice to know the ship's position, which may or may not be within a degree of latitude or longitude of what the agent gave you. Shipping agents lie like rugs.
You do want to be aware of the ship's movement as you approach. If you approach from the bow, with the ship moving toward you, the approach can get very steep very quickly, and approaching from the stern means it can get very shallow, as the ship moves underneath you. It's not difficult to adjust to it with some practice, and some forethought, though.
Make sure you have a radio for the marine VHF band, with at least Channel 16 (hailing frequency) and one other, for communicating with the ship. You don't want to land without permission, and without knowing they're ready for you. It's also nice to know the ship's position, which may or may not be within a degree of latitude or longitude of what the agent gave you. Shipping agents lie like rugs.
Sorry but I still couldn't find how to "pm" on this forum