Radar Control Service in Class D VFR
Thread Starter
Yes that's the report. What annoyed me and made me lose faith in the system was the conclusion that it was all my fault for not understanding what RCS meant. Not that the term RCS isn't defined anywhere, most pilots therefore don't understand it (not surprisingly),not that the controller forced us onto a collision course but held no responsibility for the subsequent collision. In other words not that the system is flawed - because inertia and going for the easy option makes that concept far too difficult to tackle.
Nope, easily summed up as my fault. Phew, we don't have to do anything. Is it time for lunch now?
By the way I am certain that I requested the climb before I had sight of the other traffic. I requested the climb because it was apparent the other traffic wasn't where he should have been and I didn't really know where he was. My mental picture was shattered, I couldn't see him, so the best course of action would have been vertical separation.
Regarding your point about "were you actually forced to the same point at the same time" yes we were. There was no scope for arranging different arrival times as individuals because we couldn't see each other until quite late - 1 mile to run or less, which doesn't take long at 155kts. Only ATC had the picture of both traffic and their arrival times at the specified crossing point (it was a point, not an area. Ie over the threshold, not east/west of the threshold or whatever).
Nope, easily summed up as my fault. Phew, we don't have to do anything. Is it time for lunch now?
By the way I am certain that I requested the climb before I had sight of the other traffic. I requested the climb because it was apparent the other traffic wasn't where he should have been and I didn't really know where he was. My mental picture was shattered, I couldn't see him, so the best course of action would have been vertical separation.
Regarding your point about "were you actually forced to the same point at the same time" yes we were. There was no scope for arranging different arrival times as individuals because we couldn't see each other until quite late - 1 mile to run or less, which doesn't take long at 155kts. Only ATC had the picture of both traffic and their arrival times at the specified crossing point (it was a point, not an area. Ie over the threshold, not east/west of the threshold or whatever).
AnFi
As ever you didn't read what I wrote - the controller protects the IFR traffic by giving clearances to and controlling the VFR traffic - its not rocket science. It is controlled airspace and if you don't like being controlled or think it is 'rude' (FFS) then don't go in it.
Perhaps you should spend some time in an ATC unit so you understand things from their perspective.
Crab i refer you to the correct answer given by Gegg concerning Class D airspace.
It is damn rude and condescending to presume VFR traffic cannot separate itself from IFR traffic especially in good VMC. Even though sometimes there are grounds for worryiing.
It is damn rude and condescending to presume VFR traffic cannot separate itself from IFR traffic especially in good VMC. Even though sometimes there are grounds for worryiing.
Perhaps you should spend some time in an ATC unit so you understand things from their perspective.
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by [email protected]
AnFi As ever you didn't read what I wrote - the controller protects the IFR traffic by giving clearances to and controlling the VFR traffic - its not rocket science. It is controlled airspace and if you don't like being controlled or think it is 'rude' (FFS) then don't go in it.
Perhaps you should spend some time in an ATC unit so you understand things from their perspective.
Perhaps you should spend some time in an ATC unit so you understand things from their perspective.
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Oh dear I don't know what to do, "FFS" Crab, you are just wrong that I am wrong about that, that is not what Class D is, look it up perhaps, and be educated by PPrune again?
Try the USA, implementation of Class D
Try the USA, implementation of Class D
So, go into class D airspace as VFR traffic and see how close you are allowed to get to an IFR departure - the controller is required to give protection to IFR vs IFR traffic but in practice will try to keep VFR traffic away from it by issuing appropriate clearances.
It may not be what the rules say and traffic information is always subject to controller workload but it is what happens, especially at Brize.
When I am operating IFR there, I don't expect to have to take avoiding action on VFR GA because he hasn't seen me - I expect him to be kept away from me.
The FFS was to do with the fact you think it is 'rude' to be controlled in class D
It may not be what the rules say and traffic information is always subject to controller workload but it is what happens, especially at Brize.
When I am operating IFR there, I don't expect to have to take avoiding action on VFR GA because he hasn't seen me - I expect him to be kept away from me.
The FFS was to do with the fact you think it is 'rude' to be controlled in class D
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The rules are already sufficiently complex to be a risk factor, the additional risk of people mis-applying the rules in this random way only makes it worse.
Crab:
"It may not be what the rules say and traffic information is always subject to controller workload but it is what happens, especially at Brize."
At least you realise what Class D airspace is now.
Crab:
"It may not be what the rules say and traffic information is always subject to controller workload but it is what happens, especially at Brize."
At least you realise what Class D airspace is now.
