Mid-Summer Madness
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Mid-Summer Madness
Dear PPruners
I was enjoying a cuppa at an airfield today when a Jet Ranger landed very very close to another helicopter parked on the fuelling pumps( approximate distance 10-12 feet between rotor tip and the end of the other aircraft tail boom). The pilot got out rotors running, refuelled the aircraft and got back in then re-positioned the aircraft to the north side close to the clubhouse. The pilot then hung one foot out of the cockpit whilst on the shutdown process, chopped the throttle and immediately jumped out to go in to the establishment whilst the rotors continued to run down at high speed.
I spoke to the Captain of the other aircraft involved and he said he was seriously thinking of reporting this individual.
What's your view ?
I was enjoying a cuppa at an airfield today when a Jet Ranger landed very very close to another helicopter parked on the fuelling pumps( approximate distance 10-12 feet between rotor tip and the end of the other aircraft tail boom). The pilot got out rotors running, refuelled the aircraft and got back in then re-positioned the aircraft to the north side close to the clubhouse. The pilot then hung one foot out of the cockpit whilst on the shutdown process, chopped the throttle and immediately jumped out to go in to the establishment whilst the rotors continued to run down at high speed.
I spoke to the Captain of the other aircraft involved and he said he was seriously thinking of reporting this individual.
What's your view ?
Not sure that i would be too worried about the proximity per-se - I have frequently (under considered circumstances) worked with less tip clearance than that. I would be more concerned about the affect of the downwash on the other aircraft.
As for getting out and refuelling with no one at the controls - Can't remember what the 206 Flt Manual says about that but i think it's a no-no isn't it? - someone current on the 206 will tell us i'm sure. If it's a UK AOC holder then it's probably in breach of their Ops Manual. If it's private then it's almost certainly breaking his insurance.
Now... There will be people from many different backgrounds who will jump in and say "it's no problem" and, under certain circumstances i could agree, but i don't think that just to save a couple of minuted and a startup would justify it in my book.
As rushing off to get a cup of tea afterwards.....well.... When is a helicopter considered to be in flight?
"From the first time it moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until the rotors have stopped"
Anyone think that the insurance company would pay up if anything went wrong?
Not sure i'd call the CAA but i'd definitely consider a call to his Company / Flying club / Syndicate.
Just my tuppence worth
OH
As for getting out and refuelling with no one at the controls - Can't remember what the 206 Flt Manual says about that but i think it's a no-no isn't it? - someone current on the 206 will tell us i'm sure. If it's a UK AOC holder then it's probably in breach of their Ops Manual. If it's private then it's almost certainly breaking his insurance.
Now... There will be people from many different backgrounds who will jump in and say "it's no problem" and, under certain circumstances i could agree, but i don't think that just to save a couple of minuted and a startup would justify it in my book.
As rushing off to get a cup of tea afterwards.....well.... When is a helicopter considered to be in flight?
"From the first time it moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until the rotors have stopped"
Anyone think that the insurance company would pay up if anything went wrong?
Not sure i'd call the CAA but i'd definitely consider a call to his Company / Flying club / Syndicate.
Just my tuppence worth
OH
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Jetranger
When you say the pilot got out "rotors running" was the engine powering the blades? Not that it matters much,,this is unbelieveable and the word "Cowboy" comes to mind! 
I would have no hesitation in calling the authorities on this one!
The pilot and pax should stay buckled up till rotors come to a Complete stop "without exception"!
Where were you up North? Do you mean Scotland? There are not many Jet Rangers in Scotland to be honest i can only think of one and its based in Inverness but sometimes lives near Arran! Do you have the reg?
HJ
I would have no hesitation in calling the authorities on this one!
The pilot and pax should stay buckled up till rotors come to a Complete stop "without exception"!
Where were you up North? Do you mean Scotland? There are not many Jet Rangers in Scotland to be honest i can only think of one and its based in Inverness but sometimes lives near Arran! Do you have the reg?
HJ
Don't people just thump on each other at the fuel pumps any more? Invoke the authorities for every perceived infraction, then wonder why the authorities have such a stranglehold on aviation. Brilliant.
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The correct course of action (if you thought he was unsafe or illegal) would be to talk to him about it first. Then see where that leads you. Being a tattle-tale right out of the gate is not really cricket is it? If you ahve concerns and express them, maybe he will see your point. If he tells you to piss-off then you would probably be justified in speaking to the airfield manager as a next step.
I just witnessed a pilot lose his certificate privileges for 120 days because someone complained to the FAA. He was well within the letter of the regulation but the FAA inspectors testified to the judge by adding words to the regulation. Be very careful how you handle a "one-off", but if a guy is a habitual violator (is he actually violating something) then take it to the next step. If he rents the machine or works for someone, they will straighten him out if he was wrong.
Getting out with blades turning seems more a matter for the airfield admin than going to the Government Aviation Authorities. Remember- you can't regulate common sense or good judgement, but you can sure regulate the hell out of the rest of us while you are trying to.
To make a long story short- grow a set of balls and go talk to the guy before you do something that you or I may regret later.
I just witnessed a pilot lose his certificate privileges for 120 days because someone complained to the FAA. He was well within the letter of the regulation but the FAA inspectors testified to the judge by adding words to the regulation. Be very careful how you handle a "one-off", but if a guy is a habitual violator (is he actually violating something) then take it to the next step. If he rents the machine or works for someone, they will straighten him out if he was wrong.
Getting out with blades turning seems more a matter for the airfield admin than going to the Government Aviation Authorities. Remember- you can't regulate common sense or good judgement, but you can sure regulate the hell out of the rest of us while you are trying to.
To make a long story short- grow a set of balls and go talk to the guy before you do something that you or I may regret later.
Report him for what? Being a bit of a cowboy?
If the 'other pilot' had a problem, take it up with the guy who has upset him, not invoke the authorities.
I once used ground power to start my machine, then got out to unplug it. There was no one at the controls. I feel so dirty
can someone report me as no doubt something good will come of it.
If the 'other pilot' had a problem, take it up with the guy who has upset him, not invoke the authorities.
I once used ground power to start my machine, then got out to unplug it. There was no one at the controls. I feel so dirty
can someone report me as no doubt something good will come of it.
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jj,
Busy bodies / do gooders like you should mind your own business. What's wrong with dangling a foot out the door, perhaps he was hot and was trying to relax or something.
I suppose you think he should still be strapped in, feet on the peddles and door shut?
The safety of the aircraft is the responsibility of the pilot, nothing happened so obviously not a problem then.
Busy bodies / do gooders like you should mind your own business. What's wrong with dangling a foot out the door, perhaps he was hot and was trying to relax or something.
I suppose you think he should still be strapped in, feet on the peddles and door shut?
The safety of the aircraft is the responsibility of the pilot, nothing happened so obviously not a problem then.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Wot no photos ?
In this day and age there should be plenty of cameras about !
I'm not up to speed on B206 these days, but surely it's not the best of ideas to leave any helicopter to do it's own thing is it. After all, if all thats needed to control one is to keep the controls locked it one place, flying them would be a piece of cake.
Bell 206B JetRanger (Helicopter) C-FDOE
IMHO, perhaps you should have had a word in his/her shell like, after all you were happy to speak to the other pilot. Even better, both of you could have enquired about his actions.
In this day and age there should be plenty of cameras about !
I'm not up to speed on B206 these days, but surely it's not the best of ideas to leave any helicopter to do it's own thing is it. After all, if all thats needed to control one is to keep the controls locked it one place, flying them would be a piece of cake.
Bell 206B JetRanger (Helicopter) C-FDOE
Summary
After landing the Bell 206B JetRanger helicopter, serial number 381, at a private campground near Nordegg, Alberta, the pilot rolled the throttle to idle, tightened the cyclic and collective friction controls, and briefed the fixed-wing pilot who was sitting in the left seat to hold the left-side dual controls steady. The helicopter pilot then exited the helicopter, without shutting down the engine, and ran approximately 150 feet to a recreational trailer. As he was returning to the helicopter, he stopped briefly to talk to the campground caretaker who was standing approximately 100 feet to the left of the helicopter. Immediately, thereafter, a clunking sound similar to that of an out-of-balance washing machine was heard and the helicopter began to rock fore and aft on the skids. The main rotor disc was observed to be tilted to the extreme forward position. The pilot ran back to the helicopter, ducked under the main rotor disc from the left side, ran around the front of the helicopter, and climbed into the right seat. He immediately attempted to stabilize the helicopter by applying collective and increasing rotor speed. The oscillations diminished initially and then increased dramatically when the weight was reduced on the skids. The pilot then lowered the collective and shut down the engine. When he applied the rotor brake after shutdown a loud "clunk" was heard before the rotor blades stopped turning. Examination determined that the swashplate drive collar set and both main rotor pitch links were fractured. None of the four occupants on board the helicopter sustained injury.
After landing the Bell 206B JetRanger helicopter, serial number 381, at a private campground near Nordegg, Alberta, the pilot rolled the throttle to idle, tightened the cyclic and collective friction controls, and briefed the fixed-wing pilot who was sitting in the left seat to hold the left-side dual controls steady. The helicopter pilot then exited the helicopter, without shutting down the engine, and ran approximately 150 feet to a recreational trailer. As he was returning to the helicopter, he stopped briefly to talk to the campground caretaker who was standing approximately 100 feet to the left of the helicopter. Immediately, thereafter, a clunking sound similar to that of an out-of-balance washing machine was heard and the helicopter began to rock fore and aft on the skids. The main rotor disc was observed to be tilted to the extreme forward position. The pilot ran back to the helicopter, ducked under the main rotor disc from the left side, ran around the front of the helicopter, and climbed into the right seat. He immediately attempted to stabilize the helicopter by applying collective and increasing rotor speed. The oscillations diminished initially and then increased dramatically when the weight was reduced on the skids. The pilot then lowered the collective and shut down the engine. When he applied the rotor brake after shutdown a loud "clunk" was heard before the rotor blades stopped turning. Examination determined that the swashplate drive collar set and both main rotor pitch links were fractured. None of the four occupants on board the helicopter sustained injury.
IMHO, perhaps you should have had a word in his/her shell like, after all you were happy to speak to the other pilot. Even better, both of you could have enquired about his actions.
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Nobody is mentioning what the regs actually say, here's what I found.
Article 93 of the ANO, pilot to remain at controls and be secured in seat.
(6) An operator must not permit a helicopter rotor to be turned under power for the purpose of making a flight unless there is a person at the controls entitled in accordance with article 50 to act as pilot-in-command of the helicopter.
So the shutdown does not contradict this but the refuel does (as he was refuelling for the purpose of making a flight - good English) I would talk to the man first, but be clear what you are talking about.
Times have really changed on this one, I am 90% sure there was an episode of treasure hunt where the program begins with your man Keith standing next to the 206 while it runs on it's own.
Also a former chief pilot of mine advised me that to get the job done I should do exactly this if required, but also if something went wrong that he would deny telling me that (I never did)
Article 93 of the ANO, pilot to remain at controls and be secured in seat.
(6) An operator must not permit a helicopter rotor to be turned under power for the purpose of making a flight unless there is a person at the controls entitled in accordance with article 50 to act as pilot-in-command of the helicopter.
So the shutdown does not contradict this but the refuel does (as he was refuelling for the purpose of making a flight - good English) I would talk to the man first, but be clear what you are talking about.
Times have really changed on this one, I am 90% sure there was an episode of treasure hunt where the program begins with your man Keith standing next to the 206 while it runs on it's own.
Also a former chief pilot of mine advised me that to get the job done I should do exactly this if required, but also if something went wrong that he would deny telling me that (I never did)
Last edited by Camp Freddie; 8th Jul 2011 at 22:00.
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Blimey! I may have been out of helos for a while but have we really descended to this sort of petty backstabbery?
Landing 12ft away? Well if you have to reach a pump you may have to. Nothing wrong with that per se. On my ex-company's pad we'd have to park with maybe 6 ft tip clearance with another 206/355 both rotors running. So bloody what? Christ! We flew formation not a lot further apart than that! Grow up!
How the fark does a 206 pilot handle pax away from base if not by climbing out rotors running? The manual said idle, frictions on, HYD off = OK. We couldn't have done the job withiout that in many cases.
Hot refuels happened all the time.
Climbing out to do your own hot refuel though - questionable. Avoidable, I'd say(no reason not to shut down) so no good excuse. But just dob him in to the CAA? Spiteful twisted little rats do that. Why not talk to him iof it bothers you so much. Its hardly a hanging offense.
Foot outside the door? Normal hot weather 206 shutdown position.
Walk away from it rotors coasting down? Bloody unprofessional. Go remonstrate, but as above re CAA unless you've spoken to him many times before about it.
Strewth.
Landing 12ft away? Well if you have to reach a pump you may have to. Nothing wrong with that per se. On my ex-company's pad we'd have to park with maybe 6 ft tip clearance with another 206/355 both rotors running. So bloody what? Christ! We flew formation not a lot further apart than that! Grow up!
How the fark does a 206 pilot handle pax away from base if not by climbing out rotors running? The manual said idle, frictions on, HYD off = OK. We couldn't have done the job withiout that in many cases.
Hot refuels happened all the time.
Climbing out to do your own hot refuel though - questionable. Avoidable, I'd say(no reason not to shut down) so no good excuse. But just dob him in to the CAA? Spiteful twisted little rats do that. Why not talk to him iof it bothers you so much. Its hardly a hanging offense.
Foot outside the door? Normal hot weather 206 shutdown position.
Walk away from it rotors coasting down? Bloody unprofessional. Go remonstrate, but as above re CAA unless you've spoken to him many times before about it.
Strewth.
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Landing close is OK provided it doesn't endanger people or property. I once had to break very bad news to the pilot of a Bell 222 on a charter flight at Ascot. Another so-called 'pilot' (!) overflew his aircraft at low level causing the main blade to bounce hard off the top of the tailboom. The TRDS cowling was badly dented, but worse, the tail rotor drive shaft inside was also written off. The second part of the charter was cancelled and the aircraft had to be fetched off the site on a low-loader.
Leaving a helicopter with engine(s) running and unmanned is illegal in UK, irrespective of what the "stick up for your mates at all costs" folk here think about it.
I'd also say the pilot was lazy and very unprofessional to be carrying out a RRRF in that way. What would he have actually done if the situation resulted in a fire, either to the installation or the aircraft?
Unfortunately, some pilots are thick enough not to want to be told they have made a mistake by other pilots. Not too long back I watched a so-called "professional" in a AS355 hover taxy over the starboard wing of a light fixed wing aircraft waiting to leave flying school dispersal at an airport, rather than wait a minute off to one side to let him taxy past. The control surfaces were blown all over the place. This could easily have caused major damage. Thankfully the aircraft had an instructor on board who grabbed the yoke and prevented anything hitting the stops. The thought of an inexperienced solo student continuing out to fly in an aircraft with damaged control hinges....enough said. I spoke to the pilot and told him it was a very dangerous thing he did and why. He was completely unrepentent and became quite angry with me. He actually said the problem was an ATC issue because they cleared him to dispersal so I should ring ATC if I wanted to make anything of it!
He then high hover taxied downwind from dispersal with pax on board - well in the avoid curve.
Leaving a helicopter with engine(s) running and unmanned is illegal in UK, irrespective of what the "stick up for your mates at all costs" folk here think about it.
I'd also say the pilot was lazy and very unprofessional to be carrying out a RRRF in that way. What would he have actually done if the situation resulted in a fire, either to the installation or the aircraft?
Unfortunately, some pilots are thick enough not to want to be told they have made a mistake by other pilots. Not too long back I watched a so-called "professional" in a AS355 hover taxy over the starboard wing of a light fixed wing aircraft waiting to leave flying school dispersal at an airport, rather than wait a minute off to one side to let him taxy past. The control surfaces were blown all over the place. This could easily have caused major damage. Thankfully the aircraft had an instructor on board who grabbed the yoke and prevented anything hitting the stops. The thought of an inexperienced solo student continuing out to fly in an aircraft with damaged control hinges....enough said. I spoke to the pilot and told him it was a very dangerous thing he did and why. He was completely unrepentent and became quite angry with me. He actually said the problem was an ATC issue because they cleared him to dispersal so I should ring ATC if I wanted to make anything of it!
He then high hover taxied downwind from dispersal with pax on board - well in the avoid curve.
I was up in highlands slinging in middle of no-where today and went out 4 times with rotors running.... sh**... I should be jail. 
Many JR's don't have rotor brake so staying inside until the rotor comes to complete stop can take up to 10 min, so if the area is clear and no risk of people coming too close, it should be ok, shutting down not buckled up in the seat is another story, but one foot out is just normal 206 air-condition
But parking and hovering so close to another a/c is something that should not be done if you don't have to, but is it possible that the other helicopter was parked in such way near the pump that he had no way to refuel other than like he did?
Why did you not just have a word with the jockey? I would have done that if his action was bothering me that much. But this new trend to report to authorities every minor s**t all the time is one of the most depressing things in aviation now and worst when it comes from inside the industry,
Many JR's don't have rotor brake so staying inside until the rotor comes to complete stop can take up to 10 min, so if the area is clear and no risk of people coming too close, it should be ok, shutting down not buckled up in the seat is another story, but one foot out is just normal 206 air-condition
Foot outside the door? Normal hot weather 206 shutdown position.
Why did you not just have a word with the jockey? I would have done that if his action was bothering me that much. But this new trend to report to authorities every minor s**t all the time is one of the most depressing things in aviation now and worst when it comes from inside the industry,
Last edited by rotorrookie; 9th Jul 2011 at 01:00.
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Think I understand this now. You were drinking tea having left your helicopter on the fuel pump.
Having not been refuelled hot by your crew and then parking it at your own base some 50 metres away!
If I have this right you then watched as a jet ranger arrived for fuel (still drinking tea) making no effort to assist the pilot who was forced to either park up somewhere else shut down stop strapped in until everything had stopped moving about 10 mins if no brake fitted! And go find your lazy arse and get you to move your machine the pilot then made the decision that he could without danger to the other aircraft position and still get fuel. Next problem for the jet ranger pilot to work past was he was mindful the other helicopters important role in life and at any time it may be required to rush off without delay on a very important mission so he opted on refuelling hot without help ok ok not the best plan but by now why were you still drinking tea and not out there helping him?!!! You could have gone over or sent one of your crew and let the pilot back to his controls and once fuelling was completed in a more appropriate manner he could have repositioned to the parking area were you could taken the opportunity to apologise to him for hogging the pumps!
Shutdown you tell two tales here he had the door open and belts off hot day was it? then when the engine was cut he got out, now ok this is not right but I am sure it was not the second the engine was cut but more like when the blades had slowed down to allow the control stops to work. I have sat in a jet ranger many times waiting for the blades to completely stop (one without brake) thinking of what I could do of any good sat in it with the blades turning that slow control would have no effect on anything or would I be better off out side making sure no one was walking up toward the rear.
To drink tea and then pass public comment makes you a Tw_t without personal comment first, then if you were to go to the CAA I would not want to consider the effect it would have on you and team has backstabbing tale telling do goodies when it was you that forced the situation in the first place by bad airmanship.
Having not been refuelled hot by your crew and then parking it at your own base some 50 metres away!
If I have this right you then watched as a jet ranger arrived for fuel (still drinking tea) making no effort to assist the pilot who was forced to either park up somewhere else shut down stop strapped in until everything had stopped moving about 10 mins if no brake fitted! And go find your lazy arse and get you to move your machine the pilot then made the decision that he could without danger to the other aircraft position and still get fuel. Next problem for the jet ranger pilot to work past was he was mindful the other helicopters important role in life and at any time it may be required to rush off without delay on a very important mission so he opted on refuelling hot without help ok ok not the best plan but by now why were you still drinking tea and not out there helping him?!!! You could have gone over or sent one of your crew and let the pilot back to his controls and once fuelling was completed in a more appropriate manner he could have repositioned to the parking area were you could taken the opportunity to apologise to him for hogging the pumps!
Shutdown you tell two tales here he had the door open and belts off hot day was it? then when the engine was cut he got out, now ok this is not right but I am sure it was not the second the engine was cut but more like when the blades had slowed down to allow the control stops to work. I have sat in a jet ranger many times waiting for the blades to completely stop (one without brake) thinking of what I could do of any good sat in it with the blades turning that slow control would have no effect on anything or would I be better off out side making sure no one was walking up toward the rear.
To drink tea and then pass public comment makes you a Tw_t without personal comment first, then if you were to go to the CAA I would not want to consider the effect it would have on you and team has backstabbing tale telling do goodies when it was you that forced the situation in the first place by bad airmanship.
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Jack
Pragmatically JR pilot did nothing wrong, as long as he took into consideration downwash consequences to the parked aircaft.
Leave the authorities out of it.
I can think of a better place for the foot, your head is already there.
Pragmatically JR pilot did nothing wrong, as long as he took into consideration downwash consequences to the parked aircaft.
Leave the authorities out of it.
The pilot then hung one foot out of the cockpit whilst on the shutdown
Hang on a minute......
Has anyone actually read JJ's post? I mean actually read it rather than scanning it and seeing what they want to see??
All he has done is relate a series of events, mention someone else's stated opinion and asked for comments.
At no time has he drawn any conclusions of his own or suggested reporting anyone.
OH
Has anyone actually read JJ's post? I mean actually read it rather than scanning it and seeing what they want to see??
All he has done is relate a series of events, mention someone else's stated opinion and asked for comments.
At no time has he drawn any conclusions of his own or suggested reporting anyone.
OH
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OvertHawk
I assume people are responding to some of the comments following JJ's.
eg Post #3:
(An approach with which I completely, no reservations, disagree.)
FL
At no time has he drawn any conclusions of his own or suggested reporting anyone.
eg Post #3:
I would have no hesitation in calling the authorities on this one!
FL