LPC and R44 rating renewal
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Well it gets a bit circular at that point. They can't act as a flight crew member because they don't have a license or rating !
You need to look for something in the legislation which forbids a non-crew member from touching the controls (as there is in the case of commercial flights), or something which describes the pilot in command's responsibilities as sole manipulator of the controls.
I can't find anything.
The ANO defines Flight Crew as:
It then fails to define Pilot !
It does define Pilot in Command as:
So your pax is clearly under the command of another pilot in the aircraft and is therefore not Pilot in Command.
You need to look for something in the legislation which forbids a non-crew member from touching the controls (as there is in the case of commercial flights), or something which describes the pilot in command's responsibilities as sole manipulator of the controls.
I can't find anything.
The ANO defines Flight Crew as:
in relation to an aircraft means those members of the crew of the aircraft who respectively
undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer, and flight radio telephony operator of the aircraft.
undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer, and flight radio telephony operator of the aircraft.
It does define Pilot in Command as:
means a person who for the time being is in charge of the piloting of an aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft.
Last edited by puntosaurus; 13th Jun 2011 at 18:33.
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It would seem reasonable to suggest that if a pax is "having a go" under the direction of a pilot who has no instructor rating, then the pax is receiving unlicensed flight instruction.
If it was OK where does "having a go" end, you might as well let them "have a go" at takeoff and landing as well.
I also agree that proving it's not OK using the regs is a bit of a challenge
CF
If it was OK where does "having a go" end, you might as well let them "have a go" at takeoff and landing as well.
I also agree that proving it's not OK using the regs is a bit of a challenge
CF
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Not sure what the is about.
is about.
Being able to point out that something is definitely illegal makes some people
Assuming something is illegal but not being able to say why is
"unlicensed flight instruction"
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"unlicensed flight instruction"
It wasn't unlicensed flight instruction, my mate is a FAA instruct/examiner and he kindly give me control on straight and level flying, talk about a thread snowballing
It wasn't unlicensed flight instruction, my mate is a FAA instruct/examiner and he kindly give me control on straight and level flying, talk about a thread snowballing
Hovering AND talking
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my mate is a FAA instruct/examiner
Cheers
Whirls
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When people start getting bothered about whether someone without a current licence/rating handling the controls under supervision is actually legal, it's best to just let them get on with it.
H.
When people start getting bothered about whether someone without a current licence/rating handling the controls under supervision is actually legal, it's best to just let them get on with it.
H.
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Well, something I always used to think about when teaching people (and still do today - offshore) is "how would this look in the accident report?"
I'm afraid AAIB reports are littered with cases of people flying with no current type rating/licence, unlicensed instruction etc
I'm sure you taking control straight and level is pretty safe, the chances of anything going wrong are pretty slim, and you're wondering what all the fuss is about on this thread, but at the end of the day, the rules are laid down by the JAA/CAA/ANO etc, and if you try to get around them somehow, you are leaving yourself open to risk.
Yes, the whole type rating system is an expensive pain, and we all have to deal with it. Thats the licensing system we have in Europe.
But ask yourself, is your career really worth jeopardising just for saving about 1 hour in an R44 (about £500)?
I'm afraid AAIB reports are littered with cases of people flying with no current type rating/licence, unlicensed instruction etc
I'm sure you taking control straight and level is pretty safe, the chances of anything going wrong are pretty slim, and you're wondering what all the fuss is about on this thread, but at the end of the day, the rules are laid down by the JAA/CAA/ANO etc, and if you try to get around them somehow, you are leaving yourself open to risk.
Yes, the whole type rating system is an expensive pain, and we all have to deal with it. Thats the licensing system we have in Europe.
But ask yourself, is your career really worth jeopardising just for saving about 1 hour in an R44 (about £500)?
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Aeroflot Flight 593 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now I am not saying this kind of thing is likely but it gives an indication of what can go wrong while someone is "having a go". I know it was a complex aircraft and not representative, just making a point.
I agree with hands_on123, if it feels like the "board of enquiry" would disapprove of your actions, then that gives you a test of reasonableness, but doesn't help with the legalities.
Now I am not saying this kind of thing is likely but it gives an indication of what can go wrong while someone is "having a go". I know it was a complex aircraft and not representative, just making a point.
I agree with hands_on123, if it feels like the "board of enquiry" would disapprove of your actions, then that gives you a test of reasonableness, but doesn't help with the legalities.
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I don't think anyone on this thread is trying to get away with anything. The original question was about how to legally renew a type rating. The gentleman has his answer, and I'm sure he'll go off and do the right thing now he knows what is required.
On the way the question of whether you can legally touch the controls on a private flight without a license or an instructor next to you came up. That's been answered too, and broadly speaking the answer is yes as long as you don't have an accident !
On the way the question of whether you can legally touch the controls on a private flight without a license or an instructor next to you came up. That's been answered too, and broadly speaking the answer is yes as long as you don't have an accident !
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Sorry guys for the outburst earlier, just got it into my head someone was trying to make an example out of me, anyway, tks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, yes, a lot of questions have been asked and answered, but as for me, I'm a safe pilot, I don't take chances, I wouldn't fly an aircraft or take control of an aircraft if I didn't think it was safe to do so, I have spent a lot of hard earned money getting my PPL(H) and don't intend to lose it by doing something stupid, I intend to renew my license and the only way I will be doing it, is the proper way, no short cuts.
I couldn't log the time with an FAA instructor because at the time I wasn't rated, another question, could I have logged that time with the FAA instructor as P2 under instruction?
Tks again everyone for your input
I couldn't log the time with an FAA instructor because at the time I wasn't rated, another question, could I have logged that time with the FAA instructor as P2 under instruction?
Tks again everyone for your input
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Well, its a bit of a can of worms all this "can I lot this?"..
You cannot log it as P2 as it's a single pilot aircraft
Under FAA rules, if you have a PPL, and you fly with an instructor, you can BOTH log the time as P1/PIC. But..... this only applies to time logged under FAA rules. The CAA will view ANY time logged with an instructor as P/UT.
You cannot log it as P2 as it's a single pilot aircraft
Under FAA rules, if you have a PPL, and you fly with an instructor, you can BOTH log the time as P1/PIC. But..... this only applies to time logged under FAA rules. The CAA will view ANY time logged with an instructor as P/UT.
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I'm sure --- you're wondering what all the fuss is about on this thread
A fuss about nothing IMHO. A friend gave him some stick time. Big deal.
I doubt if there's many pilots who haven't at some time offered other pilots some stick time even if they haven't got a current license or type rating and I doubt if many pilots have refused the offer just in case it's not legal.
Well, what can I say besides of maybe pilots with too little (flying) to do and therefore too much time to read up on small petty details and post here. This is only one example, and the posters are normally the same ones... 
With one exception all helicopter I have flown, the dual-controlls are very easy to remove/install and thus the opportunity is there to either leave them in with a fellow pilot occupying the other front seat or remove them when having pax in the seat.(in most Ops-manuals a requirement, if they can be removed)
My preference, is to leave them in when I do have a pilot (rated or not, those extra hands can come in handy from time to time) in the other seat, and remove them when carrying pax.
In the big picture, it's the amount of ''stick-time'' that counts to the feel for the aircraft, not the hours in the book, allthough it's those hours you need to prove that you've done the minimums.
With one exception all helicopter I have flown, the dual-controlls are very easy to remove/install and thus the opportunity is there to either leave them in with a fellow pilot occupying the other front seat or remove them when having pax in the seat.(in most Ops-manuals a requirement, if they can be removed)
My preference, is to leave them in when I do have a pilot (rated or not, those extra hands can come in handy from time to time) in the other seat, and remove them when carrying pax.
In the big picture, it's the amount of ''stick-time'' that counts to the feel for the aircraft, not the hours in the book, allthough it's those hours you need to prove that you've done the minimums.
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Well looking at the LASORS extract quoted by Whirlygig it appears that no-one can learn to fly any more.
How can one learn without acting as a pilot and manipulating the controls etc without holding a licence. I don't recall holding a student licence at any stage during ab initio training, just a logbook (and medical before solo).
How can one learn without acting as a pilot and manipulating the controls etc without holding a licence. I don't recall holding a student licence at any stage during ab initio training, just a logbook (and medical before solo).
