Are EOL's mandatory ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where it rains a lot .....
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are EOL's mandatory ?
Are engine off landings to the ground mandatory for a type rating and flight test ?
It is my machine I will be training on and take flight test !
Some people I have spoke to say tell the instructor/examiner you don't mind doing them so long as they agree to pay your insurance excess ! If it goes pete tong
Does anyone know the caa,s view on this ?
As for the sinicle sods who are going to say ring the caa, I will tomorrow but curious tonight !!!!
It is my machine I will be training on and take flight test !
Some people I have spoke to say tell the instructor/examiner you don't mind doing them so long as they agree to pay your insurance excess ! If it goes pete tong
Does anyone know the caa,s view on this ?
As for the sinicle sods who are going to say ring the caa, I will tomorrow but curious tonight !!!!
2.6.1 Autorotative landing or power recovery
This is taken from SRG 1174 page 3 - the bit us examiners have to tick ( each section
Have fun, better to know you can do it than to always be unsure, EOL's are easy !
This is taken from SRG 1174 page 3 - the bit us examiners have to tick ( each section
Have fun, better to know you can do it than to always be unsure, EOL's are easy !
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where it rains a lot .....
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's not what's in question,
I have flow my r44 for six years and for the past five the few different caa examiners only wanted me to demonstrate that I could get the aircraft close enough to the ground and then recover, !
I am just about to do a type rating onto the 120 in my own machine, and don't really want to be the one that 'went wrong' was just wondering if it would be ok for me to ask / request that we dont do them to the ground ?
I have flow my r44 for six years and for the past five the few different caa examiners only wanted me to demonstrate that I could get the aircraft close enough to the ground and then recover, !
I am just about to do a type rating onto the 120 in my own machine, and don't really want to be the one that 'went wrong' was just wondering if it would be ok for me to ask / request that we dont do them to the ground ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where it rains a lot .....
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well so far we don't have an examiner anyway!
So if there is an examiner down red hill way Tuesday or Wednesday with time to spare for a few gold coins, the please get in touch !
It would be nice to come home with the full type rating and not just a course certificate !
Any help appreciated
Nelly
So if there is an examiner down red hill way Tuesday or Wednesday with time to spare for a few gold coins, the please get in touch !
It would be nice to come home with the full type rating and not just a course certificate !
Any help appreciated
Nelly
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably not mandatory at all. Even when the drive train poos itself or the belts fly off or the engine quits or whatever that requires to land without power and you don't need to read far in these columns to see plenty of examples of required EOL's in both turbine or pistons.
Even twins run out of fuel or have gearboxes that seize or other problems.
The thing is the choice is yours, lower the collective and enter autorotative flight, if you have been trained to get that far and i've seen a few that haven't that tried to kill me right there.
In fact one over here in OZ recently dropped onto the ground a bit hard trying to fly without engine, killed himself.
Just remember if you haven't learnt how to do any of the above and you decide to do a lawn dart into a school, then everyone else will have to argue as to why you didn't reach the nuclear power station with the thick concrete walls to crash into or whatever.
Your widow will have to pay for the damage to the power station or the school and - we will still have to argue with someone about it - and someone will have to go clean up the mess, blood and guts everywhere and that's a blasted nuisance, wasting our good time talking to the cops all that, yessir a real blasted nuisance.
Remember when the belts fly off or the sprag lets go and the engine goes ballistic and you're sitting there fat dumb and happy trying to figure out what the noise is, there just will not be an instruictor - I should say a ****** instructor - sitting there saying auto-rotation - ready - 1 - 2 - 3 - go, or select the lever down in your own time or some other such dribble.
So yep the choice is yours, get an instructor to snap the throttle on you regardless of the type and belt it into you, with a big stick if necessary, an automatic and safe procedure, learn how do the whole bit including the touchdown or, please don't crash in my backyard.
I'm sick of all the arguing.
cheers tet.
Even twins run out of fuel or have gearboxes that seize or other problems.
The thing is the choice is yours, lower the collective and enter autorotative flight, if you have been trained to get that far and i've seen a few that haven't that tried to kill me right there.
In fact one over here in OZ recently dropped onto the ground a bit hard trying to fly without engine, killed himself.
Just remember if you haven't learnt how to do any of the above and you decide to do a lawn dart into a school, then everyone else will have to argue as to why you didn't reach the nuclear power station with the thick concrete walls to crash into or whatever.
Your widow will have to pay for the damage to the power station or the school and - we will still have to argue with someone about it - and someone will have to go clean up the mess, blood and guts everywhere and that's a blasted nuisance, wasting our good time talking to the cops all that, yessir a real blasted nuisance.
Remember when the belts fly off or the sprag lets go and the engine goes ballistic and you're sitting there fat dumb and happy trying to figure out what the noise is, there just will not be an instruictor - I should say a ****** instructor - sitting there saying auto-rotation - ready - 1 - 2 - 3 - go, or select the lever down in your own time or some other such dribble.
So yep the choice is yours, get an instructor to snap the throttle on you regardless of the type and belt it into you, with a big stick if necessary, an automatic and safe procedure, learn how do the whole bit including the touchdown or, please don't crash in my backyard.
I'm sick of all the arguing.
cheers tet.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sydney
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Autos
TET,
Could not agree more with your comments.
I'm an Aussie R44 flyer (my machine) and recently completed an endorsement on a turbine. My (a well known good guy in Sydney) instructor and I did a lot of autos either to the ground or very close to it, until I was happy that I could do it when (ok, if) the noise stops ! 30-40 autos in all sorts of different conditions. a) it's fun and b) why wouldn't you want to prepare for that sort of problem ?
PS - to nellycopter - I trained in my R44 RII (new) and did a million (ok, maybe less) autos...and I did not worry about the machine, I worried about ME !
Have fun !
Arrrj
Could not agree more with your comments.
I'm an Aussie R44 flyer (my machine) and recently completed an endorsement on a turbine. My (a well known good guy in Sydney) instructor and I did a lot of autos either to the ground or very close to it, until I was happy that I could do it when (ok, if) the noise stops ! 30-40 autos in all sorts of different conditions. a) it's fun and b) why wouldn't you want to prepare for that sort of problem ?
PS - to nellycopter - I trained in my R44 RII (new) and did a million (ok, maybe less) autos...and I did not worry about the machine, I worried about ME !
Have fun !
Arrrj
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Land of damp and drizzle
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys,
I suspect this may be highlighting a difference in training between the UK and Oz. Nellycopter isn't asking whether he can get away without doing any autos, he's asking whether he has to do them all the way to the ground, ie. can he auto down to within (say) 10 feet, doing (what's known here as) a flare and power recovery, or does he need to complete the auto right down to the run on landing, sans engine. He's not trying to weasel out of doing autos.
My guess is that having spent a big handful of wonga on a shiny new paraffin budgie, and fearing the statistic that many machines are pranged on full-down autos, he doesn't entirely trust the examiner/instructor to rescue the machine if he fluffs the landing at the end.
Let the debate on whether an auto to flare and power recovery instead of a run-on landing constitutes a 'proper' auto, commence! With plenty of "when I was young..."!
I suspect this may be highlighting a difference in training between the UK and Oz. Nellycopter isn't asking whether he can get away without doing any autos, he's asking whether he has to do them all the way to the ground, ie. can he auto down to within (say) 10 feet, doing (what's known here as) a flare and power recovery, or does he need to complete the auto right down to the run on landing, sans engine. He's not trying to weasel out of doing autos.
My guess is that having spent a big handful of wonga on a shiny new paraffin budgie, and fearing the statistic that many machines are pranged on full-down autos, he doesn't entirely trust the examiner/instructor to rescue the machine if he fluffs the landing at the end.
Let the debate on whether an auto to flare and power recovery instead of a run-on landing constitutes a 'proper' auto, commence! With plenty of "when I was young..."!
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 430 Likes
on
227 Posts
When I was young? Well, our basic course (Whirlwind 10) syllabus required us to complete a solo "engine offs" sortie , after about 40 hours TT on rotary wing.
Once the flight idle stop switch was selected to "ground" and the throttle on the Gnome turbine was closed, there was no powered recovery to a hover available, in fact the regulations prohibited it.
Might have been less hours than that, I'm not sure what the exercise numbers in my first logbook mean now. I blame the passage of time (well, it was 32 years ago). "Teeteringhead" might remember.
As far as I know, a student never bent one whilst flying solo EOLs.
Once the flight idle stop switch was selected to "ground" and the throttle on the Gnome turbine was closed, there was no powered recovery to a hover available, in fact the regulations prohibited it.
Might have been less hours than that, I'm not sure what the exercise numbers in my first logbook mean now. I blame the passage of time (well, it was 32 years ago). "Teeteringhead" might remember.
As far as I know, a student never bent one whilst flying solo EOLs.
For my solo EOLs it came on the run up to FHT (1976) after some 75 hrs Whirlwind time - I was obviously much slower off the mark, and I didn't mark the exercise numbers down either! However, the confidence it gave you as a student was immense (and probably quite misguided); I do however still think they are the best exercise to practice - and I have had to use it for real, albeit in a twin engine machine.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
Age: 63
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fly both R44 and EC 120. I like autos to the ground, and find it easier with the Eurocopter - more stored energy in that heavier head.
The issue is with recoverability if things are not perfect. With the R44 you can snap the throttle open fairly late on and bring the engine in in time to convert a ground attempt to a power recovery. Can't snap open the Eurocopter throttle. Well...... You can if you don't mind the bill for the over-torque. You need time to feed the throttle back in.
So it is more a case of being certain that you have it right before closing the throttle on the EC 120 because you may not be able to use the engine to recover.
The issue is with recoverability if things are not perfect. With the R44 you can snap the throttle open fairly late on and bring the engine in in time to convert a ground attempt to a power recovery. Can't snap open the Eurocopter throttle. Well...... You can if you don't mind the bill for the over-torque. You need time to feed the throttle back in.
So it is more a case of being certain that you have it right before closing the throttle on the EC 120 because you may not be able to use the engine to recover.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The examiner I use for type ratings told me that the CAA require an auto to the ground on the type test, but because the people doing the type test generally only have 5 hours or thereabouts in the machines he gets them to receover the auto at a sensible height, whilst he brings the power back in and then do a powered landing.
In his words, if the CAA were watching they'd think it was an auto to the ground.
He does EC-120 type tests, PM me if you want his details.
Cheers
Ace
In his words, if the CAA were watching they'd think it was an auto to the ground.
He does EC-120 type tests, PM me if you want his details.
Cheers
Ace
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Center of the Universe
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No they are not mandatory.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: On the Rump of Pendle Hill Lancashi
Posts: 614
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nelly,
make sure the fuel thingy is sorted out, you dont want the donk to conk just when you need it to deliver.
EOLs are far better to be practised as regualr as you can, for if not one day the world of beating and clattering will go really quiet, then what !!
Peter R-B
VfrpilotPB
make sure the fuel thingy is sorted out, you dont want the donk to conk just when you need it to deliver.
EOLs are far better to be practised as regualr as you can, for if not one day the world of beating and clattering will go really quiet, then what !!
Peter R-B
VfrpilotPB
Guest
Posts: n/a
The trainingcom I posted earlier has chapter and verse for the requirements in the UK, and it's pretty black and white. The only way you can avoid doing one on the type rating test is if the conditions are not suitable. Even then they must be taught on the course.
Rod Wood at Cabair Elstree has a technique where he shuts the throttle in the flare, once he's convinced that a run on is going to work. I've tried it a couple of times and it seems to work.
Rod Wood at Cabair Elstree has a technique where he shuts the throttle in the flare, once he's convinced that a run on is going to work. I've tried it a couple of times and it seems to work.