Identify this helo: Bin Laden compound
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Just speculation.
Hoodie,
Basically true. But the flight path could have been relatively benign, which would allow the craft to have a high inertial rotor. This inertia could used for a no-roll landing, and in this situation yaw control would be desirable.
When the stealth deed is done, helicopters come in, do a pickup, and get the hell out of there. A planned destruction of the craft could have been timed to go off after the Seals had departed.
Again
Dave
If it had been a gyro, there'd be no need for a tail rotor.
When the stealth deed is done, helicopters come in, do a pickup, and get the hell out of there. A planned destruction of the craft could have been timed to go off after the Seals had departed.
Again
Dave
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Dave,
Funny you should say that, years ago I came up with series of designs based around a powered rotor gyro concept. They ranged in size from a single seat seat proof of concept to a three seat version and finally a 6-8 seat version. One scenario I envisioned was a high speed dash to target, a decelerating pop-up to an unpowered decent to target. Never got much beyond the initial design stage but I find it interesting that Eurocopter's compound is most similar in concept.
In recent years I've morphed those ideas into a UAV concept but alas I fear I've become too much of a libertarian to pursue it much beyond the concept stage.
Anyway, as Shawn has alluded to, there have been rumors for years about black budget helicopter projects. I for one would love to hear from others what sort of things have been swirling around the rumor mill.
Here's what I've heard over the years.
The mysterious single seat, faceted, notar, simitar shaped rotor, retractable gear and gun ship seen at unnamed military test sites. Testors possibly made a model of this years ago?
The rumor that Sikorsky's stopped rotor (X-wing) research project was cover for construction of one or more black budget examples.
Both of the above were referenced in an early 90's article in Aviation Leak.
From personel interaction:
The rumor of Notar equiped AH-64's being seen in the UK confirmed to me by a former company employee.
500 style UAV being operated from Albania along the border/into Serbia in the mid 90's by work associates.
Being told by a friend and former Ranger that aircraft were operating in central and south America that were lie nothing he had ever seen?
Alright, give it up gang, what have you seen/heard of? As Shawn said this is a rumor network afterall...
Funny you should say that, years ago I came up with series of designs based around a powered rotor gyro concept. They ranged in size from a single seat seat proof of concept to a three seat version and finally a 6-8 seat version. One scenario I envisioned was a high speed dash to target, a decelerating pop-up to an unpowered decent to target. Never got much beyond the initial design stage but I find it interesting that Eurocopter's compound is most similar in concept.
In recent years I've morphed those ideas into a UAV concept but alas I fear I've become too much of a libertarian to pursue it much beyond the concept stage.
Anyway, as Shawn has alluded to, there have been rumors for years about black budget helicopter projects. I for one would love to hear from others what sort of things have been swirling around the rumor mill.
Here's what I've heard over the years.
The mysterious single seat, faceted, notar, simitar shaped rotor, retractable gear and gun ship seen at unnamed military test sites. Testors possibly made a model of this years ago?
The rumor that Sikorsky's stopped rotor (X-wing) research project was cover for construction of one or more black budget examples.
Both of the above were referenced in an early 90's article in Aviation Leak.
From personel interaction:
The rumor of Notar equiped AH-64's being seen in the UK confirmed to me by a former company employee.
500 style UAV being operated from Albania along the border/into Serbia in the mid 90's by work associates.
Being told by a friend and former Ranger that aircraft were operating in central and south America that were lie nothing he had ever seen?
Alright, give it up gang, what have you seen/heard of? As Shawn said this is a rumor network afterall...
Last edited by fling-wing_1; 8th May 2011 at 06:11.
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fling-wing 1,
I agree with what you say and with Brilliant_Stuff when he said,
Consider a large rotorcraft (gyrocopter/helicopter) that has no motor, no fuel, no primary transmission (just the main & tail connection), etc. etc. It would be a very light craft.
The glide ratio would be quite good and this would allow for a remote disconnect from the tow-craft. In addition, the pilot had probably practiced many landings with a high-inertia rotor at the mock-up of the compound in the US.
There would be no heat signature, no noise signature and a minimal radar signature. There also may not have been any damage on landing.
Apparently there was only one guard, who may have be taken down quietly.
Perhaps the Seals were in bin Laden's bedroom before he even woke up.
I agree with what you say and with Brilliant_Stuff when he said,
Maybe it's a Glider a la World War 2?
The glide ratio would be quite good and this would allow for a remote disconnect from the tow-craft. In addition, the pilot had probably practiced many landings with a high-inertia rotor at the mock-up of the compound in the US.
There would be no heat signature, no noise signature and a minimal radar signature. There also may not have been any damage on landing.
Apparently there was only one guard, who may have be taken down quietly.
Perhaps the Seals were in bin Laden's bedroom before he even woke up.
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okay, i'll play
I think they tunneled in. They simply bore a hole from the east coast right up through the entire compound and UBL falls into the hole to their waiting arms. The helicopters need no fuel so they are lighter to carry and there is absolutely no radar signature.
Cheers
Cheers
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Flight International Article
According to Flight International magazine it is one of a small number of MH-60K's produced for the US special forces that has a reduced signature tail rotor shroud and faceted stabilators. It's a mission-specific kit developed by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment at Fort Campbell, Kentucky.
Main rotor blades being taken away :
rotor2.jpg | arrakis | Fotki, Zdjcia, Obrazki Fotosik.pl
rotor1.jpg | arrakis | Fotki, Zdjcia, Obrazki Fotosik.pl
They don't look like some andvanced blades to me.
And a fuel tank cap found
06helicopter.jpg | arrakis | Fotki, Zdjcia, Obrazki Fotosik.pl
Pictures found on the net (Reuters probably?).
Arrakis
rotor2.jpg | arrakis | Fotki, Zdjcia, Obrazki Fotosik.pl
rotor1.jpg | arrakis | Fotki, Zdjcia, Obrazki Fotosik.pl
They don't look like some andvanced blades to me.
And a fuel tank cap found
06helicopter.jpg | arrakis | Fotki, Zdjcia, Obrazki Fotosik.pl
Pictures found on the net (Reuters probably?).
Arrakis
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Pakistan let China see "stealth" chopper from bin Laden raid
...presumably using low-frequency radar to look at the wreckage.
I/C
...presumably using low-frequency radar to look at the wreckage.
I/C
ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan gave China access to the previously unknown U.S. "stealth" helicopter that crashed during the commando raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May despite explicit requests from the CIA not to, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.
The disclosure, if confirmed, is likely to further shake the U.S.-Pakistan relationship, which has been improving slightly after hitting its lowest point in decades following the killing of bin Laden.
During the raid, one of two modified Blackhawk helicopters, believed to employ unknown stealth capability, malfunctioned and crashed, forcing the commandos to abandon it.
"The U.S. now has information that Pakistan, particularly the ISI, gave access to the Chinese military to the downed helicopter in Abbottabad," the paper quoted a person "in intelligence circles" as saying on its website.
It said Pakistan, which enjoys a close relationship with China, allowed Chinese intelligence officials to take pictures of the crashed aircraft as well as take samples of its special "skin" that allowed the American raid to evade Pakistani radar.
One U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters there was reason to believe Pakistan had allowed the Chinese to inspect the aircraft. But the official could not confirm it happened with certainty.
No one from the Pakistani army was available for comment, but the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Pakistan's top spy agency, denied the report. The paper said Pakistan's top general, chief of army staff Ashfaq Kayani, denied that China had been given access.
The surviving tail section, photos of which were widely distributed on the Internet, was returned to the United States following a trip by U.S. Senator John Kerry in May, a spokesman for the U.S. embassy told Reuters.
Shortly after the raid, Pakistan hinted that it might give China access to the helicopter, given its fury over the raid, which it considers a grievous violation of its sovereignty.
"We had explicitly asked the Pakistanis in the immediate aftermath of the raid not to let anyone have access to the damaged remains of the helicopter," the Financial Times quoted the source as saying.
In an incident such as the helicopter crash, it is standard American procedure to destroy sophisticated technology such as encrypted communications and navigation computers.
DISPLEASURE
Pakistan is a strategic ally to the United States but the relationship has been on a downward spiral since the killing of the al Qaeda leader in the raid by U.S. forces.
Islamabad was not informed in advance and responded by cutting back on U.S. trainers in the country and placing limits on CIA activities there.
The fact that the al Qaeda chief lived for years near the Pakistani army's main academy in the northwestern garrison town of Abbottabad reinforced suspicions in Washington about Islamabad's reliability in the war against militant Islamists.
There are also growing frustrations with Pakistan over its reluctance to mount offensives against militant factions in the northwest who are fighting U.S.-led foreign forces across the border in Afghanistan.
In a show of displeasure over Pakistan's cutback in U.S. trainers, its limits on visas for U.S. personnel and other bilateral irritants, the United States has suspended about a third of its $2.7 billion annual defense aid to Pakistan.
Despite this, both sides have tried to prevent a breakdown of relations.
The head of Pakistan's powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha, visited the United States last month for talks with U.S. government and intelligence officials, which both sides said went well.
Despite the billions in aid, Pakistan still considers China a more reliable ally than the United States. China is a major investor in predominantly Muslim Pakistan in areas such as telecommunications, ports and infrastructure. The countries are linked by a Chinese-built road pushed through Pakistan's northern mountains.
Trade with Pakistan is worth almost $9 billion a year for Pakistan, and China is its top arms supplier.
In the wake of attacks that left 11 people dead in the China's western region of Xinjiang in late July, Pakistan dispatched the ISI's Pasha to Beijing.
The disclosure, if confirmed, is likely to further shake the U.S.-Pakistan relationship, which has been improving slightly after hitting its lowest point in decades following the killing of bin Laden.
During the raid, one of two modified Blackhawk helicopters, believed to employ unknown stealth capability, malfunctioned and crashed, forcing the commandos to abandon it.
"The U.S. now has information that Pakistan, particularly the ISI, gave access to the Chinese military to the downed helicopter in Abbottabad," the paper quoted a person "in intelligence circles" as saying on its website.
It said Pakistan, which enjoys a close relationship with China, allowed Chinese intelligence officials to take pictures of the crashed aircraft as well as take samples of its special "skin" that allowed the American raid to evade Pakistani radar.
One U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told Reuters there was reason to believe Pakistan had allowed the Chinese to inspect the aircraft. But the official could not confirm it happened with certainty.
No one from the Pakistani army was available for comment, but the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Pakistan's top spy agency, denied the report. The paper said Pakistan's top general, chief of army staff Ashfaq Kayani, denied that China had been given access.
The surviving tail section, photos of which were widely distributed on the Internet, was returned to the United States following a trip by U.S. Senator John Kerry in May, a spokesman for the U.S. embassy told Reuters.
Shortly after the raid, Pakistan hinted that it might give China access to the helicopter, given its fury over the raid, which it considers a grievous violation of its sovereignty.
"We had explicitly asked the Pakistanis in the immediate aftermath of the raid not to let anyone have access to the damaged remains of the helicopter," the Financial Times quoted the source as saying.
In an incident such as the helicopter crash, it is standard American procedure to destroy sophisticated technology such as encrypted communications and navigation computers.
DISPLEASURE
Pakistan is a strategic ally to the United States but the relationship has been on a downward spiral since the killing of the al Qaeda leader in the raid by U.S. forces.
Islamabad was not informed in advance and responded by cutting back on U.S. trainers in the country and placing limits on CIA activities there.
The fact that the al Qaeda chief lived for years near the Pakistani army's main academy in the northwestern garrison town of Abbottabad reinforced suspicions in Washington about Islamabad's reliability in the war against militant Islamists.
There are also growing frustrations with Pakistan over its reluctance to mount offensives against militant factions in the northwest who are fighting U.S.-led foreign forces across the border in Afghanistan.
In a show of displeasure over Pakistan's cutback in U.S. trainers, its limits on visas for U.S. personnel and other bilateral irritants, the United States has suspended about a third of its $2.7 billion annual defense aid to Pakistan.
Despite this, both sides have tried to prevent a breakdown of relations.
The head of Pakistan's powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha, visited the United States last month for talks with U.S. government and intelligence officials, which both sides said went well.
Despite the billions in aid, Pakistan still considers China a more reliable ally than the United States. China is a major investor in predominantly Muslim Pakistan in areas such as telecommunications, ports and infrastructure. The countries are linked by a Chinese-built road pushed through Pakistan's northern mountains.
Trade with Pakistan is worth almost $9 billion a year for Pakistan, and China is its top arms supplier.
In the wake of attacks that left 11 people dead in the China's western region of Xinjiang in late July, Pakistan dispatched the ISI's Pasha to Beijing.
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Pakistan let China see crashed US "stealth" copter
Pakistan let China see crashed US "stealth" copter
That stealth tail rotor could come in handy for China one of these days.
Any thoughts?
That stealth tail rotor could come in handy for China one of these days.
Any thoughts?
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I wouldn't trust the news too much. There is a lot going on, behind the scenes, to make any "public knowledge" unreliable. For example, Pakistanis could be giving the Chinese something that Americans want the Chinese to think they have the real McCoy.
Yep, according to the article, the tail is back in the USA:
The surviving tail section, photos of which were widely distributed on the Internet, was returned to the United States following a trip by U.S. Senator John Kerry in May, a spokesman for the U.S. embassy told Reuters.
Says its a mission specific kit developed by the 160th. Another way of saying bolt-on I suppose. Don't know what kind of budget they have (does anyone really), but I'd hazard a guess its stealthy shape reveals nothing new; from the pictures it looks like the kind of stealthy form seen on the Comanche and various UAVs. This makes me think it'll be down to whether the materials used are something fancy, or a bit of plywood held together by lots of black nasty. That's where the budget bit comes in, and I've no knowledge on that matter that leads me to favour either.
Still, not very nice of the Pakistanis letting the Chinese having a poke at the kit, if that was indeed what happened, when seen from a US (and lesser extent Western) perspective. I suppose, though, the view from Islamabad might have been quite a lot different. I know it's Bin Laden, I fully support what they did to take him out, but someone did land a farily large number armed forces well inside someone elses border, and they did do a fair amount of killing, noise making and crashing about in the process. It is not unexpected such action might have been a tad upsetting to the locals, especially as they've also been caught as bunch of lying culprits as a side note to the story, and that does led weak people to do stupid things.
Still, not very nice of the Pakistanis letting the Chinese having a poke at the kit, if that was indeed what happened, when seen from a US (and lesser extent Western) perspective. I suppose, though, the view from Islamabad might have been quite a lot different. I know it's Bin Laden, I fully support what they did to take him out, but someone did land a farily large number armed forces well inside someone elses border, and they did do a fair amount of killing, noise making and crashing about in the process. It is not unexpected such action might have been a tad upsetting to the locals, especially as they've also been caught as bunch of lying culprits as a side note to the story, and that does led weak people to do stupid things.
An armed strike by special forces inside sovereign territory is definitely going to upset the locals, but not nearly as much as half a dozen Tomahawks or the contents of a B52! 
Sworn to secrecy?
This might have been bought up before but can anyone talk about the machines that were involved in Bin Ladens last day? The only thing I know is one went gently down! Or are they still top secret?
Last edited by nomorehelosforme; 10th Nov 2013 at 19:10.
"secrecy"?
Guys!
Thanks for replies
Josh shall track that down
GV sorry for the bad spelling and thanks for the correction!
Sav no surprise, you as always, have an enviable knowledge of anything to do with helicopters, thanks for the links and please keep up your great work on here
Josh shall track that down
GV sorry for the bad spelling and thanks for the correction!
Sav no surprise, you as always, have an enviable knowledge of anything to do with helicopters, thanks for the links and please keep up your great work on here