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Identify this helo: Bin Laden compound

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Identify this helo: Bin Laden compound

Old 4th May 2011, 22:34
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Rather interesting

Mock-up of what the 'stealth' MH-60 would look like...

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Old 4th May 2011, 22:37
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So much for the integrity of a "retired special ops aviator". I guess money talks in all circles! Then to be printed in an "Official or Semi-Official" military publication.

Mission helo was secret stealth Black Hawk - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times

Mission helo was secret stealth Black Hawk



By Sean D. Naylor - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday May 4, 2011 18:07:39 EDT
The helicopters that flew the Navy SEALs on the mission to kill Osama bin Laden were a radar-evading variant of the special operations MH-60 Black Hawk, according to a retired special operations aviator.
The helicopter’s low-observable technology is similar to that of the F-117 Stealth Fighter the retired special operations aviator said. “It really didn’t look like a traditional Black Hawk,” he said. It had “hard edges, sort of like an … F-117, you know how they have those distinctive edges and angles — that’s what they had on this one.”
In addition, “in order to keep the radar cross-section down, you have to do something to treat the windshield,” he said. If a special coating was applied to the windshield it is “very plausible” that would make the helicopter more difficult to fly for pilots wearing night-vision goggles, he said. The helicopters carrying the SEALs arrived over the bin Laden compound at about 1 a.m. Monday morning local time. One crash landed in the courtyard and was so badly damaged it was unable to take off again.
That crash landing might have been caused by a phenomenon known as “settling with power,” which occurs when a helicopter descends too quickly because its rotors cannot get the lift required from the turbulent air of their own downwash. “It’s hard to settle with power in a Black Hawk, but then again, if they were using one of these [low-observable helicopters], working at max gross weight, it’s certainly plausible that they could have because they would have been flying so heavy,” the retired special operations aviator said, noting that low-observable modifications added “several hundred pounds” to the weight of the MH-60, which already weighs about 500 to 1000 pounds more than a regular UH-60 Black Hawk.
The special operations troops on the bin Laden mission destroyed the stricken aircraft — most likely using thermite grenades — but the resultant fire left the helicopter’s tail boom, tail rotor assembly and horizontal stabilizers intact in the compound’s courtyard.
Photographs of the wreckage taken the next day raced around the Internet, creating a firestorm of speculation among military aviation enthusiasts because the tail of the helicopter did not resemble any officially acknowledged U.S. military airframe.
This was to be expected, the retired special operations aviator said. “Certain parts of the fuselage, the nose and the tail had these various almost like snap-on parts to them that gave it the very unique appearance,” he said. He and another source referred to the disc-shaped device that is seen covering the tail rotor in the photographs as a “hubcap.”
If the radar-evading technology worked, it “would be a true statement” to say that the use of the low-observable Black Hawks was evidence that the United States gave Pakistani authorities no advance warning of the mission, the retired special operations aviator added.
The low-observable program started with AH-6 Little Bird special operations attack helicopters in the 1980s, said the aviator. During the 1990s U.S. Special Operations Command worked with the Lockheed-Martin Skunk Works division, which also designed the F-117, to refine the radar-evading technology and apply it to the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment’s MH-60s, he said. USSOCOM awarded a contract to Boeing to modify several MH-60s to the low-observable design “in the ’99 to 2000 timeframe,” he said.
Initial plans called for the low-observable Black Hawks to be formed into a new unit commanded by a lieutenant colonel and located at a military facility in Nevada, the retired special operations aviator said. “The intent was always to move it out west where it could be kept in a covered capability,” he said.
USSOCOM planned to assign about 35 to 50 personnel to the unit, the retired special operations aviator said. “There were going to be four [low-observable] aircraft, they were going to have a couple of ‘slick’ unmodified Black Hawks, and that was going to be their job was to fly the low-observables.”
SOCOM canceled those plans “within the last two years,” but not before at least some of the low-observable helicopters had been delivered to the Nevada facility, the retired aviator said. “I don’t know if it was for money or if it was because the technology was not achieving the reduction in the radar cross-section that they were hoping for,” he said. In the meantime, MH-60 Black Hawk crews from the 160th’s 1st Battalion, headquartered at Fort Campbell, Ky., would rotate to Nevada to train on the stealthy aircraft, he said.
The low-observable MH-60s were armed with the same sort of door mini-guns as standard MH-60s, he said. “There was not a DAP conversion,” he added, referring to the MH-60 variant known as the Direct Action Penetrator, which is equipped with stub wings upon which can be fitted a variety of armaments.
The early versions of the low-observable Black Hawks were not fitted with air-to-air refueling probes, the retired special operations aviator said. “The probe would disrupt the ability to reduce the radar cross-section,” he added. “There was no way to put some kind of a hub or cowling over the probe that would make it stealthy.” However, he said he did not know whether the models that flew the bin Laden mission had been equipped with such probes.
USSOCOM spokesman Army Col. Tim Nye said his command had no comment for this story.
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Old 4th May 2011, 22:44
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Those tail photos look like any old AB139 taxiing mishap to me.

<ducks>
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Old 4th May 2011, 23:23
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Now now- you aren't saying that GHC has gotten themselves involved in covert operations? Could this be why Ned was over there taking photos this week?
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Old 4th May 2011, 23:26
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it is a UH-60

I have been a crew chief on a black hawk for 5 years now, and have been working on them for 7. If you look at the burned pile you can see the main rotor head with the shaft extension on it, and the five pack (transmission assembly) in the frame. The tail is extremely modified, but you can see the driveshaft and flex coupling hanging over the wall. I have never seen a tail like that, but no one had ever seen the SR 71 Black Bird either until it was declassified and released to the public.
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Old 5th May 2011, 01:23
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Inside bin Laden's Compound

two more of that funny tail rotor
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Old 5th May 2011, 06:06
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Just confirmed on the news that it was indeed a special varient of the blackhawk, designed to make very little noise, would be interested to see if anybody has a picture of one of these in one piece?
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Old 5th May 2011, 06:14
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Oups, my bad... seams info I have been already posted here

Last edited by Zishelix; 5th May 2011 at 06:40.
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Old 5th May 2011, 08:20
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Mikester540
Thats a impressive Stealth Black Hawk you've generated ....I would have liked a retractable refuelling probe ...could you do that too please ??Or get David Cenciotti to do it ?? That will probably reduce its RCS .
Also , flying through hills and at low level at night thro radar gaps ....Is there really a requirement of Stealth for a Special Ops helo that standoff EW aircraft or UAVs can't handle ?? Given that the Black Hawk would get so much more heavier and probably loose performance too as a tradeoff for Stealth !!
Shawn or Nick ....or anyone else there ....could you enlighten us ??
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Old 5th May 2011, 11:57
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The pre-crash image...

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Old 5th May 2011, 15:30
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looks like someone else spotted whatI was referring to on the last page

http://defensetech.org/2011/05/05/ev...-was-an-mh-60/
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Old 5th May 2011, 17:39
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A couple of questions I'd be interested in knowing the answers to:

1. Is the S-92 rotorhead (and dynamics) substantially the same as the S-70/H-60? (In other words, given SansAnhedral's point, might the fuselage of the MH-xx be based on the '92 rather than the '70?)

2. Is that mystery tail rotor canted like an H-60's? I can't tell from any of the published photos. (Rather, I can convince myself either way!)
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Old 5th May 2011, 20:17
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This looks like a Black Hawk rotorhead.

http://defensetech.org/2011/05/05/ev...-was-an-mh-60/
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Old 5th May 2011, 21:18
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Is the S-92 rotorhead (and dynamics) substantially the same as the S-70/H-60? (In other words, given SansAnhedral's point, might the fuselage of the MH-xx be based on the '92 rather than the '70?)
The 92 rotor head is significantly different. The S70 series uses a spindle/sleeve retention, whereas the S92 uses a hub/yoke/cuff setup which yields a vastly different layout.
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Old 5th May 2011, 21:51
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Thanks, SA - so main rotor head definitely(?!) an H-60, at least. The rest of the aircraft may or may not be based on Blackhawk, but I guess most likely is.

Other thoughts possibly answerable now:

- Stabilator or fixed stabiliser? (The following is probably not answerable now: If the latter, why no need to be movable for low speed pitch stability, like H-60 is? Thinks: Maybe clue to controllability, or lack of, at night close to a Pakistani wall? )

- Any pictures available of the main rotor blade tips? (Possibly unburnt, given other images?)

- That tail rotor cant angle (0, 20 or other)?
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Old 6th May 2011, 03:39
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Stealth Helicopter

5 May 2011 Last updated at 22:20 ET Share this pageEmailPrint
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'Stealth helicopters' used in Bin Laden raid
By Tom Geoghegan and Sarah Shenker
BBC News
The US forces who raided the safehouse of Osama Bin Laden appear to have caught him completely by surprise - and to have avoided detection by Pakistani radar. How did they do it?

One answer, experts believe, is that the special operations team used previously unseen stealth helicopters.


Continue reading the main story
1. Silver finish makes it harder to detect on radar and by infrared sensors

2. Shape of tailboom has been altered and possibly enlarged to evade radar

3. Pan-like cover or hubcap over the rear rotor head conceals exposed machinery which is more easily picked up on radar

4. Extra blades on tail rotor reduce noise and lessen typical chopper sound

Rest of aircraft: There is speculation that the main rotor could also have had extra blades, retractable landing gear and a cover over the main rotor head

Source: Aviation Week

The evidence for this comes from images of the wreckage of one of the helicopters, which departing Seals destroyed after it crash landed in the compound.

The tail of the top secret aircraft survived, however, providing a treasure chest of clues for aviation experts.

After some detective work, these experts have concluded it was a UH-60 Blackhawk, heavily modified to make it quieter and less visible to radar.

They are confident the raid marks the first time that a stealth helicopter has been used operationally.

It wouldn't be the first of its kind in existence, however. Sikorsky Aircraft built a number of prototype stealth helicopters, known as the RAH-66 Comanche, for the US Army. The programme was cancelled in 2004, due to escalating costs, before the helicopter become operational.


The RAH-66 Comanche had some stealth technologies
"What's new here is this was operational use," says Bill Sweetman, editor of Aviation Week. "We really haven't seen stealth helicopters used in this way before.

"The bottom line is about increasing the element of surprise. The less warning that the target has the better."

In this kind of situation an escape route for the aircraft might be needed, he adds, in which case time is of the essence.

To make a helicopter stealthy, you have to get rid of certain shapes and areas that are easily picked up on radar, says Tony Osborne, deputy editor of Rotary, a UK-based helicopter magazine.


Children collected parts of the wreckage
"You have to cover key parts so that the radar waves bounce in different directions or get absorbed...

"The tail rotor gearbox is covered. I've never seen that before in a helicopter. We know things are being played with all the time, but it is impressive to see it put into action."

The tail fin is completely smooth and appears coated in a pearlescent material that looks silver in some lights, and black in others, says Mr Osborne.

"I've only ever seen that on stealth aeroplanes, and it would probably absorb radar waves. Even the rivets are covered - radars are very sensitive and small rivets could give it away.

"The tail boom remains suggest the landing gear was retractable - again, usually it could be detected by radar, so retracting it would help avoid radar detection.

Continue reading the main story
And don't forget the dogs...

Several reports say an unidentified canine was strapped to a human member of the Seals team as he was lowered into the compound
It was most likely needed to check for hidden explosives
New York Times says it was most likely a German Shepherd or Belgian Malinois, according to military sources
"It looks like the tail rotor has five or six blades. This would mean the rotor could have a slower rotation, which would mean less noise. Noise is caused by the blade tips spinning at high speed, hitting the air."

Slipping under the radar can also be possible without stealth technology. Most of Pakistan's radars are on the ground, and therefore angled in such a way that makes low-flying aircraft difficult to detect, Mr Osborne says.

A Pakistani intelligence official who wished to remain anonymous told the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan that the helicopters were not picked up on radar and were only detected when seen entering the country from Afghanistan.

He said there were four helicopters, coming in very low.

There has been speculation that there was one more stealth helicopter, identical to the one that crashed, and that these were used as pathfinders, backed up by two larger Chinooks.
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Old 6th May 2011, 04:43
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The children picking up bits of burned and shredded composite pieces was a bit of a worry - that stuff can be toxic as hell!
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Old 6th May 2011, 05:17
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Stealth Helicopters used in Bin Laden Raid

" The US forces who raided the safehouse of Osama Bin Laden appear to have caught him completely by surprise - and to have avoided detection by Pakistani radar. How did they do it?"

Any thoughts about this BBC article? BBC News - 'Stealth helicopters' used in Bin Laden raid
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Old 7th May 2011, 20:54
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Could it have been a custom unpowered gyrocopter that was towed at a high elevation to the area, then released. Nice and quite.

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Old 7th May 2011, 21:16
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No.

If it had been a gyro, there'd be no need for a tail rotor.
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