Flying a Local Private AC.
RotorHead
Thread Starter
Flying a Local Private AC.
I have a Question for you fellow Rotor-Heads.
If one wanted to build hours on a neighbours 2 seater machine (JAA PPL/H License, Rated on type), what are the insurance requirements for the likes of this regarding a second pilot?
I was told I would need 250 Hrs to get on the insurance.
Thanks
If one wanted to build hours on a neighbours 2 seater machine (JAA PPL/H License, Rated on type), what are the insurance requirements for the likes of this regarding a second pilot?
I was told I would need 250 Hrs to get on the insurance.
Thanks
Last edited by 206Fan; 5th Apr 2011 at 21:12.
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Presumably, if you want to "build hours" you want to act as P1.
The insurance company are entitled to specify any experience requirements that they like for the P1. 250 hours sounds a bit high for a simple S/E 2 seater, but that is there choice. You cannot fly without valid insurance (legally).
Why do you want to build hours? It sounds like your "deal" is to fly only whilst the owner is also onboard. Is this really P1? The full ambit of P1 is to have total control. Unlikely, if you always have the owner onboard (who is himself a licenced pilot).
There is a reason why proper hours building is a good idea. you learn from that experience.
The insurance company are entitled to specify any experience requirements that they like for the P1. 250 hours sounds a bit high for a simple S/E 2 seater, but that is there choice. You cannot fly without valid insurance (legally).
Why do you want to build hours? It sounds like your "deal" is to fly only whilst the owner is also onboard. Is this really P1? The full ambit of P1 is to have total control. Unlikely, if you always have the owner onboard (who is himself a licenced pilot).
There is a reason why proper hours building is a good idea. you learn from that experience.
RotorHead
Thread Starter
Helinut,
Regarding the owner being on board I only meant as a safety pilot and presumed he would want to go up anyway for a few hours to make sure I could operate his machine safely.
Aside from that he told me 250 hrs was needed which I'm a long way off so that idea is out the window.
Thanks for the response.
Regarding the owner being on board I only meant as a safety pilot and presumed he would want to go up anyway for a few hours to make sure I could operate his machine safely.
Aside from that he told me 250 hrs was needed which I'm a long way off so that idea is out the window.
Thanks for the response.
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Have to agree with Helinut.
If your intent is to build true P1 time then it's best for you NOT have the owner looking over your shoulder, and certainly not within reach of the controls where, at any unexpected moment, he/she can exclaim: "I'll just show you how I normally make this approach," or something similar, as they fumble for control. Been there...felt that. Not welcoming.
Insurance...it's a risk thing. Talk to the broker(s) who is assuming that risk. He'll say 'yes...at price X.' You'll say yes or no. Every case is different, so be sure to shop around.
Dan
If your intent is to build true P1 time then it's best for you NOT have the owner looking over your shoulder, and certainly not within reach of the controls where, at any unexpected moment, he/she can exclaim: "I'll just show you how I normally make this approach," or something similar, as they fumble for control. Been there...felt that. Not welcoming.
Insurance...it's a risk thing. Talk to the broker(s) who is assuming that risk. He'll say 'yes...at price X.' You'll say yes or no. Every case is different, so be sure to shop around.
Dan
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Insurance? the same as buying a new motor car. don't move it onto the street until you have a cover note.
from your side, you should see a letter to him from his broker (who has attained same from the actual insurance company) mentioning your name as pilot and the type of flying / operation that it authorises you for.
if any / all conditions are acceptable and can be met, away you go.
otherwise his insurance company might say, who's he? whilst waggling the accusing finger. so might your 'friend??'
from your side, you should see a letter to him from his broker (who has attained same from the actual insurance company) mentioning your name as pilot and the type of flying / operation that it authorises you for.
if any / all conditions are acceptable and can be met, away you go.
otherwise his insurance company might say, who's he? whilst waggling the accusing finger. so might your 'friend??'
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I don't see anything wrong with having a more experienced pilot "looking over your shoulder". In fact a basic license is just a ticket to learn. Unless there is an insurance stipulation that the owner must be in the seat normally occupied as primary pilot, I say run with it--log the hours, get the experience and move on with your career objectives.
I spent 2 years "pulling gear" for ex-Air America and Continental Air Services (Viet-Nam & Laos) guys in Alaska and much of what I learned is probably why I'm still alive today.
I spent 2 years "pulling gear" for ex-Air America and Continental Air Services (Viet-Nam & Laos) guys in Alaska and much of what I learned is probably why I'm still alive today.
Hovering AND talking
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The insurance requirements are inversely proportional to the premium paid. If your neighbour's insurance underwriter states 250 hours, then that's what it is unless you offer to pay for the increased premium your neighbour would incur if the minima were reduced.
I've flown a few private aircraft and in each case, had the owneer with me in the left seat. I logged PIC. I can understand the owner wanting to accompany the pilot and I found it useful as well. In each case I was flying from a strange airfield so the owner could point out local procedures and landmarks as well as any individual quirks that the aircraft may have.
Cheers
Whirls
I've flown a few private aircraft and in each case, had the owneer with me in the left seat. I logged PIC. I can understand the owner wanting to accompany the pilot and I found it useful as well. In each case I was flying from a strange airfield so the owner could point out local procedures and landmarks as well as any individual quirks that the aircraft may have.
Cheers
Whirls
RotorHead
Thread Starter
then that's what it is unless you offer to pay for the increased premium your neighbour would incur if the minima were reduced.
I will have to get talking to the owner again and discuss it more thoroughly to see what he say's on the subject. The machine is only 5 Min's away and the summer is rolling in so it would be a shame not to be able to get flying it because of the Insurance.
Cheers
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Only the insurer can tell you what the increased premium would be. Depends on the machine, the insurer, you, current sunspot activity, etc...
As has been pointed out already, if you're logging PIC time, you should actually be PIC. If you're going flying with the owner, with the owner sitting in the right seat (assuming a Robbo here), you're not PIC (unless you're an instructor giving instruction). If you're flying PIC, make damn sure that you've got insurance, either in your own right or under the owners policy.
The owner would have had the option to take, say, a 100-hour minimum on insured pilots, which would have boosted his premiums. More risk (less experienced pilots) = higher insurance costs. The cost difference probably ranges from a 'fair old whack' to eye watering; welcome to rotary aviation.
As has been pointed out already, if you're logging PIC time, you should actually be PIC. If you're going flying with the owner, with the owner sitting in the right seat (assuming a Robbo here), you're not PIC (unless you're an instructor giving instruction). If you're flying PIC, make damn sure that you've got insurance, either in your own right or under the owners policy.
The owner would have had the option to take, say, a 100-hour minimum on insured pilots, which would have boosted his premiums. More risk (less experienced pilots) = higher insurance costs. The cost difference probably ranges from a 'fair old whack' to eye watering; welcome to rotary aviation.
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Perhaps if I may say in a gentle manner, just to clear the waters, that you should also check that the owner doesn't assume that you might cough up for the excess if something happened.
You know not something that you might do, say the local garbage collector backed his truck into you while you were lifting off it could bring water to your eyes. Not the crash, that's easy a few beers in the pub gets the heart settled, I mean paying for the excess.
The amount of excess is dependant on the premium also and it may vary, over here anyway, its say between 5% to say 15% of hull value. Just be sure of your arrangements first is what I am suggesting. It's a terrible way to ruin a friendship if you're not careful.
You know not something that you might do, say the local garbage collector backed his truck into you while you were lifting off it could bring water to your eyes. Not the crash, that's easy a few beers in the pub gets the heart settled, I mean paying for the excess.
The amount of excess is dependant on the premium also and it may vary, over here anyway, its say between 5% to say 15% of hull value. Just be sure of your arrangements first is what I am suggesting. It's a terrible way to ruin a friendship if you're not careful.
