The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Den Haag
Yes - I was equally surprised to see civilan types managing to rescue someone up in the mountains without much problem.
Joined: Jan 2012
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From: Wales
Know what I mean?
212man.....I did know what you meant!I 'might' have had a hand in helping training civvie crews once upon a time, prior to joining them, but oil prices dived to 12$ a barrel and jobs outside became scarce for a time. Oh well, SK wasn't too bad an alternative back then but I do like the look of the new kit!
Last edited by Al-bert; 23rd March 2013 at 16:11.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: UK
In addition to what ericferret was saying: People need to consider the reliability benefits of modern technology.
When I flew the SK, for every hour airborne, it needed approx 10hrs maintenance. When the Merlin came into service every hour airborne required 80....yes 80hrs maintenance. I believe (talking to my neighbour who is a Merlin AEO that this figure is now down to around 45-60hrs.
I am led to believe the S92 is around 4hrs maintenance for every hour airborne.
When I flew the AS355 the ratio was 1 airborne: 2 maint. Then I flew the EC135P1: 1hr airborne to 45 mins maintenance.
The 139 and 189 have the same cockpit (ish)...how logical is that
Only took 60yrs to work that one out.
So 8 engineers will suffice for 95% of the jobs at site. A floating crew sweeps up the rest.
When I flew the SK, for every hour airborne, it needed approx 10hrs maintenance. When the Merlin came into service every hour airborne required 80....yes 80hrs maintenance. I believe (talking to my neighbour who is a Merlin AEO that this figure is now down to around 45-60hrs.
I am led to believe the S92 is around 4hrs maintenance for every hour airborne.
When I flew the AS355 the ratio was 1 airborne: 2 maint. Then I flew the EC135P1: 1hr airborne to 45 mins maintenance.
The 139 and 189 have the same cockpit (ish)...how logical is that
Only took 60yrs to work that one out.So 8 engineers will suffice for 95% of the jobs at site. A floating crew sweeps up the rest.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Gold Coast, Australia
When I flew the SK, for every hour airborne, it needed approx 10hrs maintenance. When the Merlin came into service every hour airborne required 80....yes 80hrs maintenance. I believe (talking to my neighbour who is a Merlin AEO that this figure is now down to around 45-60hrs.
Is the S92 quoted the MH rate for a SAR machine?
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: England
Man hours per hour flown like all statistics can be misleading.
Heavy maintenance hours for instance would be included in the figures but are not relevent if a replacement aircraft is put in place on an operation.
Does this figure include washing, towing, starts, turn rounds. e.t.c.
If you have a duty line crew these hours are "covered".
As an example the 139 goes in for heavy maintenance every 1200 hours off line for about 2 weeks, no effect on the line maintenace man hours for the operational aircraft.
If the figure of 400 hours a year is about right then that is every 3 years.
As the aircraft mature the 1200 hour will probably escalate giving a greater period between checks but with more down time as the aircraft get older.
Is there a spare aircraft available, how the maintenace program is organised, and aircraft reliability are the issues that are more important than a flying hour versus man hour figure.
The size of the windows made available for scheduled maintenance have an effect, smaller the window the better organised you have to be and more people might be needed.
Again you can only get so many people in one hole!!!!!
Heavy maintenance hours for instance would be included in the figures but are not relevent if a replacement aircraft is put in place on an operation.
Does this figure include washing, towing, starts, turn rounds. e.t.c.
If you have a duty line crew these hours are "covered".
As an example the 139 goes in for heavy maintenance every 1200 hours off line for about 2 weeks, no effect on the line maintenace man hours for the operational aircraft.
If the figure of 400 hours a year is about right then that is every 3 years.
As the aircraft mature the 1200 hour will probably escalate giving a greater period between checks but with more down time as the aircraft get older.
Is there a spare aircraft available, how the maintenace program is organised, and aircraft reliability are the issues that are more important than a flying hour versus man hour figure.
The size of the windows made available for scheduled maintenance have an effect, smaller the window the better organised you have to be and more people might be needed.
Again you can only get so many people in one hole!!!!!
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
Tourist - I am hardly bigging myself up here - just highlighting that an international perspective on what we do in UK SAR from those in the world's largest coastguard is that we (not me, but we) do in fact have a very high standard to which others aspire.
If you want to get petty, ask some of the RN exchange pilots we have had what they think of RAF SAR standards of operation
(ie those who have actually flown with us rather than those sniping from the sidelines)
The serviceability of the Sea King fleet has never been much to crow about and 2 serviceable aircraft per flight is quite unusual nowadays.
If you want to get petty, ask some of the RN exchange pilots we have had what they think of RAF SAR standards of operation
(ie those who have actually flown with us rather than those sniping from the sidelines)The serviceability of the Sea King fleet has never been much to crow about and 2 serviceable aircraft per flight is quite unusual nowadays.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,536
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From: The Alps
Unmanned SAR and Post 2024
Latest News - bristowgroup.com
A first for the MCGA with the use of Schniebel Camcopter VTUAS In assisting with SAR.
Last year, they were trials with Camcopter (made appearance at RIAT ...my photos below).
And SAR contract is up for grabs in 4 Years time
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/s...gramme-uksar2g
cheers
A first for the MCGA with the use of Schniebel Camcopter VTUAS In assisting with SAR.
Last year, they were trials with Camcopter (made appearance at RIAT ...my photos below).
And SAR contract is up for grabs in 4 Years time
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/s...gramme-uksar2g
cheers
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 542
From: Lost again...
Latest News - bristowgroup.com
A first for the MCGA with the use of Schniebel Camcopter VTUAS In assisting with SAR.
cheers
A first for the MCGA with the use of Schniebel Camcopter VTUAS In assisting with SAR.
cheers
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
Dingo- - at least they will be able to have HD pictures of people drowning. This capability is better used for Police Mispers searching.
Much as I used to hate the many, many hours of fruitless searching, a crew of 4 or 5 in a helicopter with all the modern sensors plus the Mk 1 eyeball, is always going to be a more effective search platform.
But of course it's all about cost since the drones will be much cheaper and we can pretend the area has been searched effectively because the computer says so.
- at least they will be able to have HD pictures of people drowning. This capability is better used for Police Mispers searching.Much as I used to hate the many, many hours of fruitless searching, a crew of 4 or 5 in a helicopter with all the modern sensors plus the Mk 1 eyeball, is always going to be a more effective search platform.
But of course it's all about cost since the drones will be much cheaper and we can pretend the area has been searched effectively because the computer says so.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 382
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From: Out there
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Dingo- - at least they will be able to have HD pictures of people drowning. This capability is better used for Police Mispers searching.
Much as I used to hate the many, many hours of fruitless searching, a crew of 4 or 5 in a helicopter with all the modern sensors plus the Mk 1 eyeball, is always going to be a more effective search platform.
But of course it's all about cost since the drones will be much cheaper and we can pretend the area has been searched effectively because the computer says so.
- at least they will be able to have HD pictures of people drowning. This capability is better used for Police Mispers searching.Much as I used to hate the many, many hours of fruitless searching, a crew of 4 or 5 in a helicopter with all the modern sensors plus the Mk 1 eyeball, is always going to be a more effective search platform.
But of course it's all about cost since the drones will be much cheaper and we can pretend the area has been searched effectively because the computer says so.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 313
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From: PLANET ZOG
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Dingo- - at least they will be able to have HD pictures of people drowning. This capability is better used for Police Mispers searching.
Much as I used to hate the many, many hours of fruitless searching, a crew of 4 or 5 in a helicopter with all the modern sensors plus the Mk 1 eyeball, is always going to be a more effective search platform.
But of course it's all about cost since the drones will be much cheaper and we can pretend the area has been searched effectively because the computer says so.
- at least they will be able to have HD pictures of people drowning. This capability is better used for Police Mispers searching.Much as I used to hate the many, many hours of fruitless searching, a crew of 4 or 5 in a helicopter with all the modern sensors plus the Mk 1 eyeball, is always going to be a more effective search platform.
But of course it's all about cost since the drones will be much cheaper and we can pretend the area has been searched effectively because the computer says so.
. More publicity for the MCA press department to push out of their helicopter arriving at the last minute and saving the day. But you won't see the PIW going down for the final time while some anonymous drone pilot sits in his/her/non gender office drinking coffee
.3D CAM
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: The Himalayas
Evil and Crab some time ago I would have agreed with you but alas, times are changing. The ability of the sensors coupled with AI means a given area can be searched much quicker than a manned asset with much greater detection rates. I make these comments from experience and the advancement Rate in EO/IR Change detection technology is mind blowing. The manned unmanned teaming is the future.
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: EGDC
Peely - the drone seems to have one sensor turret which can only point in one direction at a time despite having autoscan functions - that doesn't compare to a multicrew helicopter with the same turret plus people looking out of the window.
I have done enough sensor driven searches to know they are not a panacea and the human capability, as Evil Twin says, more often than not saves they day.
This belief that technology and AI is the solution to everything is always driven by those marketing the technology.
I have done enough sensor driven searches to know they are not a panacea and the human capability, as Evil Twin says, more often than not saves they day.
This belief that technology and AI is the solution to everything is always driven by those marketing the technology.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 852
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From: Brum
Evil and Crab some time ago I would have agreed with you but alas, times are changing. The ability of the sensors coupled with AI means a given area can be searched much quicker than a manned asset with much greater detection rates. I make these comments from experience and the advancement Rate in EO/IR Change detection technology is mind blowing. The manned unmanned teaming is the future.
You are wasting your breath.
The luddites on here will never accept anything other than 'it's better to do it my way because that's how it's always been done'...