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The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H

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The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H

Old 2nd Feb 2013, 06:30
  #1081 (permalink)  
 
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Annual Hours

With the current tending topic training hours it would be interesting to see where we are now.

What are the current monthly totals, or annual to allow for seasonal variations, flown by RN, RAF & MCA crews? What is the breakdown between training/SAROPS?

Might help to have a start point prior to the change to 50hrs per month.
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Old 2nd Feb 2013, 08:18
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RAF trg hrs

I believe the RAF guys can fly between 3 & 4 hrs per shift training, which equates to about 90-120 hrs per month.

I don't think they always do (although I did hear a quote of "2hrs day, 2hrs night, whether the rearcrew need it or not!"), but it's available if they feel the need.
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Old 2nd Feb 2013, 08:39
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Not planned flying hours, actual. I'm sure a plan of 120hrs (for the base, not the individual) a month will experience some reduction due to jobs, maintenance, weather, crew unavailibility/ground based training.

So actual stats for an RAF/RN/MCA crew.

I'll start you off...

MCA pilot: 250hrs in last 365 days of which 190hrs training, 60hrs SAROPS (no sim time included which is another 12hrs annually).

Last edited by Flounder; 2nd Feb 2013 at 11:02.
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Old 2nd Feb 2013, 11:12
  #1084 (permalink)  
 
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... it would be interesting to see where we are now. ...
Nice one Flounder. Getting MoD and DfT to speak the same language has been a challenge for some time. When we've got to the bottom of the great training hours mystery maybe we can start on the great SAROPS mystery, as highlighted in the 2001 provision and coverage report and unresolved as far as I know.
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Old 2nd Feb 2013, 11:14
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It has gone a bit quiet hasn't it....
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 10:47
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It has gone a bit quiet hasn't it....
Do you think it was something you said?
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 10:50
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Has anyone hered of the proposed Emergency Air Responce working group? This is just a snip of it

UK Search and Rescue Strategic Committee. The UK Search and Rescue (UK SAR) Strategic Committee is an inter-agency

national forum established in 2000, with responsibility for advising on the structure, scope and framework of the organisation of UK SAR. The
[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]
primary objectives of the Committee are to develop criteria for the coverage, responsiveness and availability of SAR services, to promote
[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial]
effective and efficient co-operation between government departments, emergency services and voluntary agencies for the effective provision of national SAR services. The Committee‟s remit is to offer views to ministers on improving SAR capabilities and the effectiveness and
co-operation of SAR providers. The membership of the UKSAR Strategic Committee is confined to those departments with strategic and policyresponsibilities for search and rescue and to national organisations that contribute significantly to UK SAR.

1.2
UK Emergency Air Response Working Group. The UK SAR Strategic Committee agreed to the formation of a „UK SAR HEMS

Working Group‟ in late 2011 in order to examine the interaction between SAR and Helicopter Emergency Medical Services (HEMS) aircraft. However, it was soon recognised that the Group‟s work should be broadened to embrace other emergency air response operations. The Group therefore adopted the title of the UK Emergency Air Response (EAR) Working Group in order to better describe its composition and functions.

The membership of this Group was drawn from organisations with responsibility for providing medical services, search and rescue, fire and rescue services, police aviation and aviation legal compliance matters, including the following:

Association of Air Ambulances (AAA)

Association of Ambulance Chief Executives

Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO)

British Association of Immediate Care (BASICS)

Care Quality Commission (CQC)

Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA)

Civil Aviation Authority

Department of Health (DH)





– Co Chair

Department for Transport (DfT)

HM Coastguard (HMCG)

Ministry of Defence – Air Rescue Coordination Centre – Co Chair

NHS Commissioners

NHS - Resilience & Preparedness Implementation

National Police Air Service

Scottish Ambulance Service

Assistance has also kindly been provided by the Association ofChief Police Officers Scotland (SAR Portfolio)

Last edited by cyclic stop; 3rd Feb 2013 at 15:09.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 15:28
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Come on, Crab. You're never off this thread.

What were your totals for the last year? Training and ops?
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 18:37
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Because I am in a travelling training and examining job my totals are not representative of a line pilot. However I think between 250 and 300 hours is about right with the amount of SAROps in there being variable depending on how busy your flight is - Chivenor and Valley did over 300 jobs each last year whereas Wattisham was under 200.

Most RAF crews will fly a good proportion of those 4 hours available each day so even if you took out 30 days to weather and serviceability (which is a lot) you still end up with each flight getting through over 1300 hours per year.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 20:11
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SAR hours

Crab, seems that you do about the same number of hours per year as the Civilian SAR unit that has the longer jobs and perhaps 50 more than the quieter ones. Training & ops taken into account.
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Old 3rd Feb 2013, 22:51
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Very scientific. QED.
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Old 4th Feb 2013, 05:58
  #1092 (permalink)  
 
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However, since both sides of the mil/civ SAR fly a similar number of hours (training and ops), the new contract will still nearly halve the amount of training hours.

Flounder flew 190 hours of training last year - under the new contract, that would be a third of the total for the whole flight. Assume that 2 pilots get the full training together and there are 5 crews - at Flounder's present rate that is 950 training hours for a year - SARH is mandated to provide 600.

So what training is going to be cut? Both the mil and existing civsar seem to agree on what amount of training is required to do the job - how have the MCA and DfT been able to cut a huge swathe through that with no actual knowledge of the task?

I fear that Jim is right and tasks like lifeboat and MRT exercises and any other sort of valuable liaison flying will just disappear. But even if you get rid of those tasks, 600 hours is simply not enough to maintain competence - it might give a technical currency but that is not the same and it will come back and bite someone in the arse.
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Old 4th Feb 2013, 07:21
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To vainly quote myself

50 hours of training per month works out at about 1 hour 35 per shift. If on average a crewmember works about 84 shifts per year ie 7 shifts per month that's just 11 hours and 5 minutes training per person per month. About 3 hours of a pilot's training allowance will probably go towards instrument flying leaving him just 8 hours or so for SAR role training. About half the time on SAR training sorties is spent transiting to the training location and not always under the hood so that leaves just four hours per month for sits, decks, drums, wets, mountains, homing etc. That doesn't seem enough for experienced SAR operators let alone inexperienced aircrew who may be recruited.

Not particularly scientific either but a reasonable attempt to calculate what awaits us. It's just not enough. Which bean counter decided this and more to the point, who the hell advised them that 50 hours per month was sufficient?
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Old 4th Feb 2013, 08:03
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Training hours

Is this why the CHC bid was so much more expensive? As a company already providing SAR and aware of the needs, did CHC cost in the training it knew to be necessary rather than the training minimum as specified?

(Leaving aside, of course, the conspiracy theory that CHC didn't want this job anyhow. I'm wondering why any company might go to the enormous trouble of putting together this kind of bid with no intention of winning the contract at the end of it. I know I wouldn't. Unless perhaps I wanted to provide the DfT with some kind of benchmark of good practice - a noble aim, but a little unlikely in the current economic climate!)
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Old 4th Feb 2013, 08:14
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Crab, when I was on civ SAR, over 10 years ago, it was 3.5 crews per base. Have things changed? Or is 5 crews a mil thing? What's the crewing with CHC?
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Old 4th Feb 2013, 08:56
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I am not sure like is being compared with like here.

Perhaps different approaches to crew roles in military and civilian aircraft will have a effect on how training hours can be used and this should be represented in the comparison. Bond, Bristow and CHC have all done UK SAR so there should be example out there.

ITT Schedule 2.1 Specification, addresses Training for SAR organisations and
emergency services at 2.2.1 and for Aircrew at 2.2.2. Schedule 2.3 asks for different type of training for aircrew and mentions initial, on-job-training and continuation training, then synthetic and live training.

I suggest that aircrew training and SAR organisations and emergency services training have a big overlap. Although it does not explicitly state it in the ITT Schedules, initial and continuation training will be necessary for both.

So the 50 hours, is that Aircrew Continuation? And On-the-job? And this includes synthetic? Probably a yes. What about the rest?

Last edited by jimf671; 4th Feb 2013 at 08:58.
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Old 6th Feb 2013, 03:40
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Sevarg - EU working time directive limits crew to 2000hrs/year

365x24/2000 = 4.4 crews

SM
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Old 6th Feb 2013, 08:11
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SM, On the face of it yes but back then it was 1300 to 2100, then standby at home till 0800 till 1300. 13 hrs at work 11 standby. If 35+ days holiday are factored in it gives, for round figures 1400 duty hrs plus what ever is given for the standby time. The amount of night call-outs were low maybe only 10% giving interrupted standby.
I must say that in my 5 years with BHL on SAR the only crew I remember running short of hrs were the winchies and that was due to them standing extra shifts so others could get time off to get off the island.
As I say I'm well out of it now and not up to date so open to correction, so what is the actual crewing with CHC in Scotland and Lee?

Last edited by Sevarg; 6th Feb 2013 at 08:36.
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Old 6th Feb 2013, 08:17
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Is the 50 hours training ringfenced for actual training? to give an example, NPAS (police) have very little allocation of training hours. The assumption is that the crews will gain almost all of their 'training needs' on the job. In fact the only training hours mandated are 4 hours annually per pilot for simulated instruments, along with 2 hours with a TRI testing and a further 2 hours base and line checks.

Now I accept that police flying and SAR flying are worlds apart at the delivery end (police crews will routinely do many jobs per shift), but with moves towards empire building in the future, management and regulators will push to use SAR jobs as training time just as police flying does.
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Old 6th Feb 2013, 12:15
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... ... and regulators will push to use SAR jobs as training time ... ...

Really? With 2 AOC to maintain, crews of four to keep in-date and thousands of part-time and voluntary members of partner SAR organisations to pre-train in order to comply with the SAR AOC?

I shall be fascinated to learn how this is possible.

Last edited by jimf671; 6th Feb 2013 at 12:17.
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