The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
Of course the only thing being considered is COST. Look at all the over fiasco's PFI for hospitals etc.
They want to cheaply cover an international responsibility to provide a maritime rescue service oh and the usual foolish walkers(which should pay by the way but that's a separate issue)
I am pleased its only 15 years. Like earlier posters have said, the badge on the outside of the chopper will change but 90% of the people will be the same.
By the way the wages will have to compete with the oil and gas ones.This isn't the Iberian peninsular.
Merry chrimbo and chill out , for once I'm with crab.
They want to cheaply cover an international responsibility to provide a maritime rescue service oh and the usual foolish walkers(which should pay by the way but that's a separate issue)
I am pleased its only 15 years. Like earlier posters have said, the badge on the outside of the chopper will change but 90% of the people will be the same.
By the way the wages will have to compete with the oil and gas ones.This isn't the Iberian peninsular.
Merry chrimbo and chill out , for once I'm with crab.
Everyone is talking about a 20% lower offer.... But where are the numbers? The economic facts? Maybe we should be discussing why a company offered a bid 20% more expensive
I'll get my coat
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Merry Christmas Crab
Sorry you took it personally, I just said you were talking crap about how commercial aviation prices things because you have no experience of how they do it. Perfectly reasonable in the circumstances. Your earlier comment about how the SAR competiton's outcome will be down to the lowest price reflects on how little you really know about how these things are finally done. You bang on about your own prejudices, how ever well informed from a military sar experience perspective, but you have none of any substance in the civil world so you should cut your argument accordingly IMO. You come across as arrogant, blinkered and prejudiced as a result.
BTW I note you answered none of my points but chose to argue by deflection rarher than anything else.
Merry Christmas to all of you who are working today. I know how it feels.
Sorry you took it personally, I just said you were talking crap about how commercial aviation prices things because you have no experience of how they do it. Perfectly reasonable in the circumstances. Your earlier comment about how the SAR competiton's outcome will be down to the lowest price reflects on how little you really know about how these things are finally done. You bang on about your own prejudices, how ever well informed from a military sar experience perspective, but you have none of any substance in the civil world so you should cut your argument accordingly IMO. You come across as arrogant, blinkered and prejudiced as a result.
BTW I note you answered none of my points but chose to argue by deflection rarher than anything else.
Merry Christmas to all of you who are working today. I know how it feels.
Last edited by 4thright; 25th Dec 2012 at 08:10.
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Jayteeto a manager......... tried that and failed miserably 
Why, because I can't lie about cheaper being good enough.
One squaremetre, what you don't realise is that I agree with what you want, you are right, it could be one of my family dies because of cost cutting. However, I may not be a manager, but I am a REALIST. Members of my family are taking pay cuts, the service our helicopter is supporting is creaking at the edges, sometimes failing, public services are being slashed all over the country. Police, hospitals, doctors, firemen, ambulance, military, binmen, schools, highways, coastguard and many more have been done at the knees. Tell me why SAR is more deserving than a cancer unit or a childrens ward?
Answer: They are not!! Repeat, Jayteeto is not a management lacky, he is a realist. Accept it and live with it.
Why, because I can't lie about cheaper being good enough.One squaremetre, what you don't realise is that I agree with what you want, you are right, it could be one of my family dies because of cost cutting. However, I may not be a manager, but I am a REALIST. Members of my family are taking pay cuts, the service our helicopter is supporting is creaking at the edges, sometimes failing, public services are being slashed all over the country. Police, hospitals, doctors, firemen, ambulance, military, binmen, schools, highways, coastguard and many more have been done at the knees. Tell me why SAR is more deserving than a cancer unit or a childrens ward?
Answer: They are not!! Repeat, Jayteeto is not a management lacky, he is a realist. Accept it and live with it.
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500e, Mil SAR in support of the MCA will cease however, as they have done for many decades, RN helicopters will provide 24/7 SAR cover when embarked. All RN aircrew complete SAR training as part of their respective training courses and then subsequently have to maintain currency/competency in this role.
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Does anybody know when the Government is to announce the winners of the 2 bids and also when these 2 contracts are to start. Has it also been announced where these aircraft are to be based. Am i correct in saying that it looks like Prestwick is to be moved to Glasgow airport.
abzheli
The 7th March is the published date for the award to be announced but I don't expect the full story, including details of the base locations, to be known until some time after that.
The contract transition starts on 1st April 2015, Lot 1 at, or in the vicinity of, Leconfield, and Lot 2 at, or in the vicinity of, Lossiemouth.
The 7th March is the published date for the award to be announced but I don't expect the full story, including details of the base locations, to be known until some time after that.
The contract transition starts on 1st April 2015, Lot 1 at, or in the vicinity of, Leconfield, and Lot 2 at, or in the vicinity of, Lossiemouth.
JBeefer
Thanks, so we will still be paying to train RN \ RAF SAR + paying for private SAR sounds good to me
Expect you look down on us most days, could almost train over the levels at present
Thanks, so we will still be paying to train RN \ RAF SAR + paying for private SAR sounds good to me
Expect you look down on us most days, could almost train over the levels at present
Last edited by 500e; 25th Dec 2012 at 22:07.
Talk of RN SAR when embarked brings the question of whether, in the absence of a budget for escort destroyers (!), we can expect new efforts in RN SAR as we approach the new carrier age.
In the same period, aircraft will return from Afghanistan. Even after scrapping some of them, and transfer between services, we may end 2015 with the question of why it was necessary to spend up to £3.1 billion on more helicopters.
I do wonder if we are going to be spending 2016 explaining to Joe Public and our dear friends in the Press why a Puma Mk2 isn't as good as a new S-92 with de-icing and a top quality FLIR ball.
In the same period, aircraft will return from Afghanistan. Even after scrapping some of them, and transfer between services, we may end 2015 with the question of why it was necessary to spend up to £3.1 billion on more helicopters.
I do wonder if we are going to be spending 2016 explaining to Joe Public and our dear friends in the Press why a Puma Mk2 isn't as good as a new S-92 with de-icing and a top quality FLIR ball.
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How much have they spent per airframe on Puma Mk2?
How much is an S92 per airframe including introduction to service costs?
How much is an S92 per airframe including introduction to service costs?
How much is an S92 per airframe including introduction to service costs?
Last edited by 212man; 26th Dec 2012 at 07:42.
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I haven't flown the S92 but the Puma L2 as a SAR aircraft is a long way from a good solution. All the Pumas are quite pitch unstable which makes doing decks more of a challenge. The autopilot makes the aircraft "mushy" although the SAR modes are good. The cockpit is cramped with no space for additional role equipment and the cabin would end up with a lot of folk with really bad backs. The Puma was designed to be fast in a straight line, the Sea King to be stable in the hover. A combination of the two would be ideal, I don't know if that is what the S92 is?
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SAR Helos
The cockpit is cramped with no space for additional role equipment and the cabin would end up with a lot of folk with really bad backs. The Puma was designed to be fast in a straight line, the Sea King to be stable in the hover.
Try flying an AW139, which is in service as a SAR aircraft - and the AW189 won't be much better...
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500e
You are confusing the issue here - the RN will train for SAR as they have always done - this is because as all mariners will know there is a moral obligation for all on the sea to help each other in an emergency. Often the best way for an RN skipper to help when at sea is to use his helicopter.
This is not a case of pay for one or the other (Mil or MCA SAR) but completely removed from the obligtation the government has to provide SAR around the UK coast.
Not sure what you are trying to say in your final para but I have never looked down on any fellow aviators based on whether they are RAF/RN or Civ - indeed I now fly in Civ SAR with a complete mix and enjoy doing so ...
You are confusing the issue here - the RN will train for SAR as they have always done - this is because as all mariners will know there is a moral obligation for all on the sea to help each other in an emergency. Often the best way for an RN skipper to help when at sea is to use his helicopter.
This is not a case of pay for one or the other (Mil or MCA SAR) but completely removed from the obligtation the government has to provide SAR around the UK coast.
Not sure what you are trying to say in your final para but I have never looked down on any fellow aviators based on whether they are RAF/RN or Civ - indeed I now fly in Civ SAR with a complete mix and enjoy doing so ...
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Although the Puma series is a little unstable in pitch (and roll in my opinion) the EC225 auto hover is very stable, more so than the L2. But in terms of cabin, the S-92 is the best on the market today (ignoring the 101 which is prohibitively expensive for what will be a cost driven decision)
JB thought you were still flying out of EGDY no slight intended, we are on the edge of the zone
I understand the life at sea obligation, used to ocean race in youth, still think it is sensible to have one training regime with one provider rather than split you have public money going to contractors + public money going to mill training so there is an overlap the mill training is a must as you say so why not funnel the Money to an existing proven provider.
I understand the life at sea obligation, used to ocean race in youth, still think it is sensible to have one training regime with one provider rather than split you have public money going to contractors + public money going to mill training so there is an overlap the mill training is a must as you say so why not funnel the Money to an existing proven provider.
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the EC225 auto hover is very stable
so why not funnel the Money to an existing proven provider.
Auto hover modes are great for getting people out of the water or using a hover trim facility for the winch op to 'fly' the aircraft but bugger all use for decks (except little ones that you treat like a big drum anyway).
Unless a full S92 bid to cover all the SAR flts is submitted and accepted, winchops and winchmen of the future will have to endure the 1.4m high cabin of the AW 189.
