Heli routing over Hammersmith
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: here
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am aware that the FAA IR is different to UK, etc, etc. and that they were just trainers but as someone pointed out the 206B I thought I would add a bit of useless information.
HTC
HTC
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but is there not a risk from forcing these helis to effectively scud-run to remain VFR in the 500-900'AGL height range?
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In fact the usual clearance given at the moment is "The 133 radial to Brent, not above 1500' and then not above 1000' Heathrow QNH Brent to Battersea avoding R157."
If you want to fly tight to R157 then Brent to the Westfield Shopping Centre then to Earls Court brings you close to the boundary, but you do get closer to Hammersmith which is possibly why BFA is seeing more helicopters. Also with cloud at 1000' and all the city buildings a ground observer may be hearing "reflected sound" where the aircraft seems to be in one direction, but is in fact different place and therefore can't be seen when the ground observer looks for it.
Last week the weather was on the limits for Battersea, the slant range was good, but the horizontal range c***. I did wonder if anyone on the ground would have been able to see my aircraft, when my view of the London streets below was fine.
As for bimbling around in cloud at 500' the risks to career would be too great to take a chance on getting caught.
Finally most PPLs let alone fixed wing tend to be surprised at the level of kit we have in modern twins. Auto-pilots, couplers, amazing moving maps, sat- phones and a single engine performance that is better than the singles we originally trained on.
God we're mollycoddled today (Just no-one tell my boss
)
If you want to fly tight to R157 then Brent to the Westfield Shopping Centre then to Earls Court brings you close to the boundary, but you do get closer to Hammersmith which is possibly why BFA is seeing more helicopters. Also with cloud at 1000' and all the city buildings a ground observer may be hearing "reflected sound" where the aircraft seems to be in one direction, but is in fact different place and therefore can't be seen when the ground observer looks for it.
Last week the weather was on the limits for Battersea, the slant range was good, but the horizontal range c***. I did wonder if anyone on the ground would have been able to see my aircraft, when my view of the London streets below was fine.
As for bimbling around in cloud at 500' the risks to career would be too great to take a chance on getting caught.
Finally most PPLs let alone fixed wing tend to be surprised at the level of kit we have in modern twins. Auto-pilots, couplers, amazing moving maps, sat- phones and a single engine performance that is better than the singles we originally trained on.
God we're mollycoddled today (Just no-one tell my boss
)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
Age: 63
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, not bad kit in my single.
Flymap 7 moving map with current charts (including the heliroute charts)
Virtual horizon with electronic AH altitude and height over ground displayed
Radio altimeter (in addition to the 2 altimeters)
Mode S transponder
2x radios
VOR navigation
Second Garmin GPS with the usual ATZ information
And all the usual flight instruments.
I don't have 2 engine, autopilot or stability control but I do know precisely where I am, at what height and my clearance over ground. Mode S means that ATC know also so I don't break any rules (never did even without all that kit).
Flymap 7 moving map with current charts (including the heliroute charts)
Virtual horizon with electronic AH altitude and height over ground displayed
Radio altimeter (in addition to the 2 altimeters)
Mode S transponder
2x radios
VOR navigation
Second Garmin GPS with the usual ATZ information
And all the usual flight instruments.
I don't have 2 engine, autopilot or stability control but I do know precisely where I am, at what height and my clearance over ground. Mode S means that ATC know also so I don't break any rules (never did even without all that kit).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: On a roll...
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks guys for all the fascinating answers...the rotary world is indeed a different one to fixed-wing.
Couple of questions still occur to me though:
1. Whether routing into Battersea or not, when cloudbase is of order of 700'AGL or less, with the right aircraft and licence, does this mean you can fly through the Heathrow zone IMC? So, the SVFR is just a convenience (as for fixed-wing) when conditions permit....
2. Does the concept of "infringement" off a heli-route exist? Or is the fact you're talking to Heathrow Special negate this possibility? I've never seen any stats for heli-route infringements as such....
PS. Yes, took a R22 trial lession afew years back in Jo'burg (much cheaper than UK!) and decided it would be a very bad to ever step foot in a chopper again, as I would bankrupt myself....it was waaayyy too much fun. When you get back in a C152 you sort of wonder why the wings are not doing anything....
BFA
Couple of questions still occur to me though:
1. Whether routing into Battersea or not, when cloudbase is of order of 700'AGL or less, with the right aircraft and licence, does this mean you can fly through the Heathrow zone IMC? So, the SVFR is just a convenience (as for fixed-wing) when conditions permit....
2. Does the concept of "infringement" off a heli-route exist? Or is the fact you're talking to Heathrow Special negate this possibility? I've never seen any stats for heli-route infringements as such....
PS. Yes, took a R22 trial lession afew years back in Jo'burg (much cheaper than UK!) and decided it would be a very bad to ever step foot in a chopper again, as I would bankrupt myself....it was waaayyy too much fun. When you get back in a C152 you sort of wonder why the wings are not doing anything....
BFA
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
1. Yes, why not? I've carried out IMC instrument approaches to LHR in a helicopter a few times. It's difficult to get fitted in but it can be done. Can only be done in an IFR twin, of course.
2. "Infringement"? ATC have to maintain standard IFR separation between aircraft. If inadvertently going off the cleared route means that is compromised, then, yes, an infringement has occurred. It did happen a while back, an aircraft overshot a cleared waypoint near you (went too far west at 1000 feet, max height 750 feet) and standard separation was lost against an inbound to LHR, causing an investigation.
2. "Infringement"? ATC have to maintain standard IFR separation between aircraft. If inadvertently going off the cleared route means that is compromised, then, yes, an infringement has occurred. It did happen a while back, an aircraft overshot a cleared waypoint near you (went too far west at 1000 feet, max height 750 feet) and standard separation was lost against an inbound to LHR, causing an investigation.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re:
1. The definition of IMC and what SVFR means varies between types of aircraft AND the Class of airspace. Also, cloudbase has nothing to do with whether you are IMC in a helicopter in Class A airspace. The limits to permitted visibility for SVFR in helicopters varies depending upon what you and others are doing and where (from 1 km to 10 km if I recall correctly). However, the cloudbase en-route is never a limit to SVFR.
If you are IMC in Class A airspace you must be IFR, but you could be if you had the IR and a suitable helicopter, as ST suggests.
2. I am not quite sure that I understand 2. ATC gives you a clearance, If you follow it you are OK. If the conditions prevent you from continuing in a accordance with the clearance, you tell ATC and a plan is organised to sort it out. Lots of hele twins using the London Zone SVFR can accept an IFR clearance, although it may not get them where they wanted to go (e.g. no IFR approach to Battersea).
1. The definition of IMC and what SVFR means varies between types of aircraft AND the Class of airspace. Also, cloudbase has nothing to do with whether you are IMC in a helicopter in Class A airspace. The limits to permitted visibility for SVFR in helicopters varies depending upon what you and others are doing and where (from 1 km to 10 km if I recall correctly). However, the cloudbase en-route is never a limit to SVFR.
If you are IMC in Class A airspace you must be IFR, but you could be if you had the IR and a suitable helicopter, as ST suggests.
2. I am not quite sure that I understand 2. ATC gives you a clearance, If you follow it you are OK. If the conditions prevent you from continuing in a accordance with the clearance, you tell ATC and a plan is organised to sort it out. Lots of hele twins using the London Zone SVFR can accept an IFR clearance, although it may not get them where they wanted to go (e.g. no IFR approach to Battersea).
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: On a roll...
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, think I understand now the blend of SVFR and IFR that's being used by choppers within the Heathrow Zone. As F/W GA of course, SVFR is pretty much you're only option and that's only around the fringes or the BUR-Ascot transit.
Am working in the area of infringements, so was interested to hear what would constitute an infringement in terms of the heli-routes, if SVFR. How far off track do you have to be to be considered effectively "in the zone"??
Am working in the area of infringements, so was interested to hear what would constitute an infringement in terms of the heli-routes, if SVFR. How far off track do you have to be to be considered effectively "in the zone"??
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
You're "in the zone" all the time your track takes you inside the lines on the chart.
Again, helicopters are put on the published routes so that the IFR traffic can be ensured the normal IFR separation from all traffic inside Class A airspace. Radar controllers understandably get concerned if a helicopter strays off the allocated route by more than a few metres and will correct the pilot. When LHR is using the easterly runways, some heli-routes (e.g. H3) are closed in order to ensure continued separation.
Helicopters under SVFR are allowed to pass each other along certain routes, such as those following a line feature like the Thames, if both pilots agree.
Again, helicopters are put on the published routes so that the IFR traffic can be ensured the normal IFR separation from all traffic inside Class A airspace. Radar controllers understandably get concerned if a helicopter strays off the allocated route by more than a few metres and will correct the pilot. When LHR is using the easterly runways, some heli-routes (e.g. H3) are closed in order to ensure continued separation.
Helicopters under SVFR are allowed to pass each other along certain routes, such as those following a line feature like the Thames, if both pilots agree.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The helis over Hammersmith going North are probably not on the heliroutes and would be twins.
I don't know what limits ATC use to determine whether a hele is OFF the route. It often is not much though: they have eyes in the backs of their radar heads. I think they listen a lot to the voice on the RT. I suspect they get more concerned when the separation between IFR traffic and the on route approaches the defined separation limit.
As ST already said there is an opt out from normal IFR radar separation standards if 2 heles are on a route, the vis is better than 6K(?) and the pilots agree. However, if one hele is OFF a route then ATC must apply standard separation. You get some odd effects. If a police hele is on scene in the Zone off a heliroute but close to it within standard separation limits, then heles on the route will get held. However, if the police hele moves off scene onto the route, ATC can clear the other hele through. Police pilots will often volunteer to move back on the route if they can to allow this.
The other main exception to standard separation is when ATC can separate traffic visually. This happens in ATZs in the London zone when the TWR controller is visual with both aircraft. That's how heles can do a LHR crossing which is one of life's real buzzes no matter how many times you do it.
I don't know what limits ATC use to determine whether a hele is OFF the route. It often is not much though: they have eyes in the backs of their radar heads. I think they listen a lot to the voice on the RT. I suspect they get more concerned when the separation between IFR traffic and the on route approaches the defined separation limit.
As ST already said there is an opt out from normal IFR radar separation standards if 2 heles are on a route, the vis is better than 6K(?) and the pilots agree. However, if one hele is OFF a route then ATC must apply standard separation. You get some odd effects. If a police hele is on scene in the Zone off a heliroute but close to it within standard separation limits, then heles on the route will get held. However, if the police hele moves off scene onto the route, ATC can clear the other hele through. Police pilots will often volunteer to move back on the route if they can to allow this.
The other main exception to standard separation is when ATC can separate traffic visually. This happens in ATZs in the London zone when the TWR controller is visual with both aircraft. That's how heles can do a LHR crossing which is one of life's real buzzes no matter how many times you do it.
