Heli routing over Hammersmith
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Heli routing over Hammersmith
Hi,
PPL(A) recently moved to Hammersmith.
Am just curious, there seems to be a clearly IFR routing commercial helis out of Battersea use that runs northwards over Hammersmith, yet I can't find any sign of it in the heli-routes.
It looks like a standard route, since is used all day long!
BFA
PPL(A) recently moved to Hammersmith.
Am just curious, there seems to be a clearly IFR routing commercial helis out of Battersea use that runs northwards over Hammersmith, yet I can't find any sign of it in the heli-routes.
It looks like a standard route, since is used all day long!
BFA
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Hampshire UK
There are no IFR routeings inbound to or outbound from Battersea. The only aerodromes authorised for IFR helicopters are Heathrow and RAF Northolt. There is a fairly standard SVFR route from Battersea - Barnes - Brent Reservoir that operates initially not above 1000ft QNH. This is available to twin engined helicopters only.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Hampshire UK
Determining in-flight weather conditions is the pilot's responsibility, and under a SVFR clearance, helicopters must remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. Additionally, a pilot must remain in flight conditions that enable him to determine his flight path, remain clear of obstacles, and operate in accordance with Rule 5.
Battersea will normally be closed to traffic unless the cloudbase is 600ft or greater, and/or the met vis is 1000m or greater.
Battersea will normally be closed to traffic unless the cloudbase is 600ft or greater, and/or the met vis is 1000m or greater.
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From: On a roll...
Hmmh, wonder if I've opened a can of crawling pink bird-food here....
A S-76 has just gone over Hammersmith literally 5 mins ago heading northbound, clear of cloud, but noticeably low. Couldn't be more than 500'AGL.
EGLL METAR is showing FEW070.
Obviously twin with ATPL(H)/IR aboard and super nav equipment etc, but seems rather tight to be working SVFR.
Guess my point is that those us fixed-wing would never get or attempt SVFR in these conditions, even with an equally well-equipped a/c (e.g. G1000 C182 or SR22 say).
Know a heli gives obvious other PFL options, hence the different Rule 5 criteria, but over a crowded conurbation, am wondering at the risk mitigation?
A catastrophic hydraulics failure or tail rotor loss does not give too many options or time at that height I would have thought.
Any thoughts, comments?
BFA
A S-76 has just gone over Hammersmith literally 5 mins ago heading northbound, clear of cloud, but noticeably low. Couldn't be more than 500'AGL.
EGLL METAR is showing FEW070.
Obviously twin with ATPL(H)/IR aboard and super nav equipment etc, but seems rather tight to be working SVFR.
Guess my point is that those us fixed-wing would never get or attempt SVFR in these conditions, even with an equally well-equipped a/c (e.g. G1000 C182 or SR22 say).
Know a heli gives obvious other PFL options, hence the different Rule 5 criteria, but over a crowded conurbation, am wondering at the risk mitigation?
A catastrophic hydraulics failure or tail rotor loss does not give too many options or time at that height I would have thought.
Any thoughts, comments?
BFA
Hovering AND talking
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Hmmh, wonder if I've opened a can of crawling pink bird-food here....
Are you sure you can judge the difference between 400 and 600 feet? FEW at 7,000 feet is irrelevant if the aircraft must remain not above 1,000 feet.
A Sikorsky 76 is a twin-engined medium helicopter and a very different animal to a single engined Cessna or SR22, however well-equipped they may be. The 76 is likely to have two ATPL/IR pilots on board for a start, auto-pilot, emergency systems etc etc.
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: Jun 2008
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From: England & Scotland
If he is on the heliroute, that route is chosen because it offers options in the case of catastrophic emergency. A heli can land on a relatively small patch of ground - hence the different application on clarance rules. It may be that though this looked tricky from your viewpoint, it looked very much different from his - and that is the view that counts.
Even off the heliroutes, there are specific rules for twins which are different to singles.
Anyway, with a mode S transponder operating you can rest assured that his exact position and hight was known to ATC. Very, very unlikely that he would break any rules with a very clear record being kept of his every move.
Even off the heliroutes, there are specific rules for twins which are different to singles.
Anyway, with a mode S transponder operating you can rest assured that his exact position and hight was known to ATC. Very, very unlikely that he would break any rules with a very clear record being kept of his every move.
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Nothing to suggest you are witnessing anything out of the ordinary. A SVFR clearance requires the aircraft to be flown clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. The 500 foot rule applies, the 1,000 foot rule doesn't. The arrival and departure procedures from Battersea are well laid down. The aircraft will be in contact with Heathrow Special over that area and are tracked closely on radar, with a transponder code given. IFR aircraft have Mode C so the altitude shows up on the controller's screen. Due to the proximity of inbounds descending to LHR over that part of London, helicopters are given a maximum altitude to fly, i.e. not above 1,000 feet, London QNH. The route H3 to the west of Hammersmith carries a maximum altitude of 750 feet.
The northbound routing is not given to single engined aircraft.
Helicopters suffering a "catastrophic hydraulic failure"?
Helicopters have either no hydraulics (in which case the system can't fail), one hydraulic system (in which case the aircraft is flown in manual), or two hydraulic systems, in which case the warning light comes on (only amber, no catastrophe here) and the other system carries on powering the controls). The aircraft continues on its way.
I think you should be more worried about something like a Boeing 777 suffering catastrophic fuel system icing, running out of engines and landing short of the runway at Heathrow.
Btw, it isn't totally unheard of for helicopters to fly the ILS at LHR, totally in cloud, down to a 200 foot cloudbase. I don't see a difference in risk.
The northbound routing is not given to single engined aircraft.
Helicopters suffering a "catastrophic hydraulic failure"?
Helicopters have either no hydraulics (in which case the system can't fail), one hydraulic system (in which case the aircraft is flown in manual), or two hydraulic systems, in which case the warning light comes on (only amber, no catastrophe here) and the other system carries on powering the controls). The aircraft continues on its way.
I think you should be more worried about something like a Boeing 777 suffering catastrophic fuel system icing, running out of engines and landing short of the runway at Heathrow.
Btw, it isn't totally unheard of for helicopters to fly the ILS at LHR, totally in cloud, down to a 200 foot cloudbase. I don't see a difference in risk.
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Betterfromabove
From your profile you are PPL(A) so no-one here is going to give you a hard time for asking questions about heli operations. If you want to find out a little more about what helicopters can do, I suggest that you post in the "Spare Seats" in GA and try to get a ride. It would not take long to show you how (for example) a single can be flown "no hydraulics". I fly singles, and frequently practice both flying and landing without hydraulics just in case I ever need to. I can also fly without the tail rotor (landing gets more difficult but I can still safely leave London without it, if I have to) and again I practice this regularly. Finally, we regularly practice "engine-off" landings just to keep sharp.
If you are very lucky, even more lucky than just to get a seat, you may even get a flight through the heliroutes. If you do you would see how many options there are for landing in the remote chance that the donk stops. Include in this potential landing area the Thames, as any single undertaking passenger work has to be able to land there in an emergency.
The size of gap needed to put a heli down without an engine varies with the size of the helicopter; but a large machine is likely to be multi-engined and a multi is more likely to be able to leave the area on remaining engine(s) to land at one of the many airfields surrounding London. For a single the size of an EC120 (5-seat single turbine, 1.7ton) the area required for a forced landing is about the size of the penalty zone on a football field (though more is always nice!). In a forced landing we don't have the forward speed of an aeroplane.
Regards
John
From your profile you are PPL(A) so no-one here is going to give you a hard time for asking questions about heli operations. If you want to find out a little more about what helicopters can do, I suggest that you post in the "Spare Seats" in GA and try to get a ride. It would not take long to show you how (for example) a single can be flown "no hydraulics". I fly singles, and frequently practice both flying and landing without hydraulics just in case I ever need to. I can also fly without the tail rotor (landing gets more difficult but I can still safely leave London without it, if I have to) and again I practice this regularly. Finally, we regularly practice "engine-off" landings just to keep sharp.
If you are very lucky, even more lucky than just to get a seat, you may even get a flight through the heliroutes. If you do you would see how many options there are for landing in the remote chance that the donk stops. Include in this potential landing area the Thames, as any single undertaking passenger work has to be able to land there in an emergency.
The size of gap needed to put a heli down without an engine varies with the size of the helicopter; but a large machine is likely to be multi-engined and a multi is more likely to be able to leave the area on remaining engine(s) to land at one of the many airfields surrounding London. For a single the size of an EC120 (5-seat single turbine, 1.7ton) the area required for a forced landing is about the size of the penalty zone on a football field (though more is always nice!). In a forced landing we don't have the forward speed of an aeroplane.
Regards
John
Thread Starter
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From: On a roll...
Guys
Thanks for all the detailed replies....this place is like a university sometimes
...er, that should have been FEW007 at EGLL, sorry(!)
Aviation is full of these cases of where the risk is not quite what it first appears (in both senses).
My question really comes from the risk reduction behaviour we're taught as PPL(A)'s. Even more for IMCR, where one major consideration for emergency contingency is the fact of what a low cloudbase does for diversion / engine out options.
Clearly, the experience and skill level, plus the equipment on board, is vastly superior to a PPL(A or H) - who without an IR should not be airborne on a day like today - but is there not a risk from forcing these helis to effectively scud-run to remain VFR in the 500-900'AGL height range?
Even despite being M/E and the other mitigating factors in crew skill levels, does not 500'AGL (let's say...) when marginal like today, not give long to get to one of those PFL bolt-holes....!?
BFA
Thanks for all the detailed replies....this place is like a university sometimes
...er, that should have been FEW007 at EGLL, sorry(!)
Aviation is full of these cases of where the risk is not quite what it first appears (in both senses).
My question really comes from the risk reduction behaviour we're taught as PPL(A)'s. Even more for IMCR, where one major consideration for emergency contingency is the fact of what a low cloudbase does for diversion / engine out options.
Clearly, the experience and skill level, plus the equipment on board, is vastly superior to a PPL(A or H) - who without an IR should not be airborne on a day like today - but is there not a risk from forcing these helis to effectively scud-run to remain VFR in the 500-900'AGL height range?
Even despite being M/E and the other mitigating factors in crew skill levels, does not 500'AGL (let's say...) when marginal like today, not give long to get to one of those PFL bolt-holes....!?
BFA
Joined: Jun 2008
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From: England & Scotland
If you check the CAA website you will see that the minimum requirement for a heli to run IFR includes twin engines, stablisation, etc - you can't get single engine IFR helicopter. So even with one engine out at 500ft, you still have power - usually enough to continue to fly, though often not enough to hover. Hnce you would vacate on one engine, divert to an aerodrome and erform a run-on landing.
Not a big issue, really.
Not a big issue, really.
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
I think the "engine failure/PFL" case is being overstated.
Again, the route in question is NOT given to single engined helicopters. The risk of two helicopter turbine engines failing simultaneously is very small indeed. The S-76 (and other twin engined helicopters) provides Class A performance, just like a good multi-engined fixed wing can i.e. the aircraft can either safely land on below takeoff decision point (a speed/ height combination) or continue with the climb and cruise to a safe landing elsewhere, albeit at a reduced cruise speed.
Again, the route in question is NOT given to single engined helicopters. The risk of two helicopter turbine engines failing simultaneously is very small indeed. The S-76 (and other twin engined helicopters) provides Class A performance, just like a good multi-engined fixed wing can i.e. the aircraft can either safely land on below takeoff decision point (a speed/ height combination) or continue with the climb and cruise to a safe landing elsewhere, albeit at a reduced cruise speed.
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From: UK
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
But as many of us know, that aircraft is/was a "one-off" based on grandfather rights.
In any case, it would never be flown in these circumstances.
In any case, it would never be flown in these circumstances.
Hovering AND talking
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
FAA IR is a different kettle of fish ... there are no IR certified single-engined helicopters in the UK anymore.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
herman the crab
Yes there are thousands of them....BUT they are NOT certified for IMC. You can fly them on an IFR flight plan but must remain in VMC.
Don't know about the UK but there were R22 IR trainers in the US a while back.
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From: Land of damp and drizzle
There are still a few IFR singles floating around Europe - I'm aware of a school in Portugal running an IFR S300 on a SE IR(H) course. None in the UK, though, since II got retired (as has already been pointed out).