Canadian MI-17s
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot say everyhting here but euroscopter is still provides consulting and we also look for another project coming.
38 has complete new system and newer technolohy for all dynamic systems it is much larger than mi-8/17 but handling is better it fly as if for much smaller helicopter for moving finely. Of course initeria when you try to stop it fast from high speed because helicopter heavier but if you fly 38 then you do not want to go to fly 8/17.
38 has complete new system and newer technolohy for all dynamic systems it is much larger than mi-8/17 but handling is better it fly as if for much smaller helicopter for moving finely. Of course initeria when you try to stop it fast from high speed because helicopter heavier but if you fly 38 then you do not want to go to fly 8/17.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Toledo, OH
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
grizzled, I was there during the 2004 time period supporting the UN. So I do know what I am talking about. When I got there the UN had 5 on contract and before I left, only one was operating, even though the operator's contract still had over a year to go. On two occasions we were alerted to conduct a search for one of the UN Mi8's. The UN operations and safety people that I dealt with were not Westerners. There were from Latin and South America and the Middle East. A majority of them were from military services that operated Russian helicopters. And they still don't like them. The UN accounts love them because the operators are bidding them at 1/2 to 1/3 of what a western helicopter will go for. I know this because I have been shown the bid results after the contracts were awarded. However, the UN generally pays for the fuel and crew accommodations.
Each person's experience may be different. I have dealt with Russian aircraft in many parts of the world, all with Russian, Ukraine and Belarus crews and maintenance. Plus I have flown on some these aircraft. I saw and heard nothing that gave me the warm and fuzzys. The guys over at Dyncorp that operates a MI8 and a MI17 in Afghanistan have had no maintenance problems over all. But they use their own mechanics and maintain it to their standards. What they told me was that they change a component the instant they start having problems with it. Their comments were that the machine was a maintenance and fuel hog. And that it was designed to maintained with a sledgehammer. The machine was designed to Russian military standards, in that components were not designed to be overhauled, just pulled and replaced.
Each person's experience may be different. I have dealt with Russian aircraft in many parts of the world, all with Russian, Ukraine and Belarus crews and maintenance. Plus I have flown on some these aircraft. I saw and heard nothing that gave me the warm and fuzzys. The guys over at Dyncorp that operates a MI8 and a MI17 in Afghanistan have had no maintenance problems over all. But they use their own mechanics and maintain it to their standards. What they told me was that they change a component the instant they start having problems with it. Their comments were that the machine was a maintenance and fuel hog. And that it was designed to maintained with a sledgehammer. The machine was designed to Russian military standards, in that components were not designed to be overhauled, just pulled and replaced.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Philadelphia PA
Age: 73
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Part of the problem has to be the culture of the operators. VIH Logging in Canada now has the high time Russian built helicopters, and after a few years of teething problems, now appears to have a nearly trouble free-operation.
But it took a lot of learning on the part of both sides.
From a design point, Russian machines are much more robustly built, and are Russian solutions to Russian problems. The lack of hangars, for example, drives many often overlooked things. The disposable payload fraction is less than on western machines and the fuel consumption is higher.
On a comparison to Western machines - it's interesting to see the KA-32 in the hangar (with little maintenance being needed) alongside another well-used Western helicopter that is stripped to the bones and undergoing structural repair as it does every year. The Ka-32 was originally lifed at 6,000 hours (I believe) and is now passing 13,000 with no airframe fatigue issues.
So, in the right hands, the Russian machines are just fine.
But it took a lot of learning on the part of both sides.
From a design point, Russian machines are much more robustly built, and are Russian solutions to Russian problems. The lack of hangars, for example, drives many often overlooked things. The disposable payload fraction is less than on western machines and the fuel consumption is higher.
On a comparison to Western machines - it's interesting to see the KA-32 in the hangar (with little maintenance being needed) alongside another well-used Western helicopter that is stripped to the bones and undergoing structural repair as it does every year. The Ka-32 was originally lifed at 6,000 hours (I believe) and is now passing 13,000 with no airframe fatigue issues.
So, in the right hands, the Russian machines are just fine.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Спасибо (thank you) shawn coylve;
It is require understaning as you say.
You czeck our news here==
"Russian Helicopters, the Russian helicopter engineering holding company, a part of United Industrial Corporation Oboronprom, and the Russian Center for Scientific and Technical Services Dinamika (CSTS Dinamika) have signed a cooperation agreement in the marketing, development, production, and delivery of technical training means for flight and engineering personnel operating Russian-made rotorcraft.
Under this agreement the parties are planning to jointly create, certify, and run technical training units (TTU) for flight and engineering personnel operating helicopter complexes of various roles.
The agreement also envisions joint marketing and the promotion of modern TTU for rotorcraft manufactured by Russian Helicopters on local and international markets within integrated delivery contracts."
It is require understaning as you say.
You czeck our news here==
"Russian Helicopters, the Russian helicopter engineering holding company, a part of United Industrial Corporation Oboronprom, and the Russian Center for Scientific and Technical Services Dinamika (CSTS Dinamika) have signed a cooperation agreement in the marketing, development, production, and delivery of technical training means for flight and engineering personnel operating Russian-made rotorcraft.
Under this agreement the parties are planning to jointly create, certify, and run technical training units (TTU) for flight and engineering personnel operating helicopter complexes of various roles.
The agreement also envisions joint marketing and the promotion of modern TTU for rotorcraft manufactured by Russian Helicopters on local and international markets within integrated delivery contracts."
rick1128...
Again – with respect – I stick by what I said in my last posting.
I know most (if not all) the UN Air Ops people you mention – I worked with them in the year you refer to (2004). I have worked within the UN (DPKO and WFP) and with the UN continuously since then, and I spent most of 2007 in Kabul, along with a few months of last year (and I have another gig there starting in January. Sigh…). I have also worked in the Middle East, South East Asia, and Africa with American, Canadian, South African, Australian, Ukrainian, Russian, Moldovan, and various other operators. And crews from all those places plus more.
Of course there are biases among us all; indeed I certainly had my own “anti-Russian aircraft bias” for a long time. My point is simply this: The UN’s own statistics – and those of the CAA’s of other countries where both Western made helicopters and Russian made helicopters are abundantly represented – show that in the past 10 years helicopter losses, AOG time, injuries and fatalities, all show that the Mil machines (MI-8, MI-17, and MI-26) have a better record (per flight hours) than (for instance) Bell 212’s in the same missions doing the same tasks.
BTW, the most recent contracts being signed by the UN (by that I mean the past two years) show the contract costs of the Mil helicopters creeping much closer to those of the “equivalent” Western machines (i.e./ no longer the 1/3 to ½ you mentioned). The free market always finds its level…
You mentioned having to look for a missing MI-8 (in Afghanistan, in 2004 I presume). In Afghanistan specifically, since 2003 there have been approximately 3 times as many Western helos lost or substantially damaged as MI’s. (I’m referring to civil rotary wing ops, with “shoot-downs” excluded) This despite the fact the Mils have put in far more hours (combined).
All types have their advantages and disadvantages. What we “from the West” have been finding out in the past few years is that when KA’s and Mil’s (for example) are operated to ICAO standards – including maintenance, training and, most importantly, safety culture – they are reliable safe machines.
As was mentioned earlier, perhaps this thread should be split, as it’s evolved into a “Western Helos v/s Eastern Helos” thread.
Again I offer a PM exchange if you or anyone else wishes.
Cheers,
grizz
Again – with respect – I stick by what I said in my last posting.
I know most (if not all) the UN Air Ops people you mention – I worked with them in the year you refer to (2004). I have worked within the UN (DPKO and WFP) and with the UN continuously since then, and I spent most of 2007 in Kabul, along with a few months of last year (and I have another gig there starting in January. Sigh…). I have also worked in the Middle East, South East Asia, and Africa with American, Canadian, South African, Australian, Ukrainian, Russian, Moldovan, and various other operators. And crews from all those places plus more.
Of course there are biases among us all; indeed I certainly had my own “anti-Russian aircraft bias” for a long time. My point is simply this: The UN’s own statistics – and those of the CAA’s of other countries where both Western made helicopters and Russian made helicopters are abundantly represented – show that in the past 10 years helicopter losses, AOG time, injuries and fatalities, all show that the Mil machines (MI-8, MI-17, and MI-26) have a better record (per flight hours) than (for instance) Bell 212’s in the same missions doing the same tasks.
BTW, the most recent contracts being signed by the UN (by that I mean the past two years) show the contract costs of the Mil helicopters creeping much closer to those of the “equivalent” Western machines (i.e./ no longer the 1/3 to ½ you mentioned). The free market always finds its level…
You mentioned having to look for a missing MI-8 (in Afghanistan, in 2004 I presume). In Afghanistan specifically, since 2003 there have been approximately 3 times as many Western helos lost or substantially damaged as MI’s. (I’m referring to civil rotary wing ops, with “shoot-downs” excluded) This despite the fact the Mils have put in far more hours (combined).
All types have their advantages and disadvantages. What we “from the West” have been finding out in the past few years is that when KA’s and Mil’s (for example) are operated to ICAO standards – including maintenance, training and, most importantly, safety culture – they are reliable safe machines.
As was mentioned earlier, perhaps this thread should be split, as it’s evolved into a “Western Helos v/s Eastern Helos” thread.
Again I offer a PM exchange if you or anyone else wishes.
Cheers,
grizz
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: retirementland
Age: 79
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Russian aircraft have their place. Shell use Mil 8 MTVs in Sakhalin, but they are fitted with HUMS, secondary survival features and used within sight of shore, all part of a detailed Shell Aircraft safety case.
Mi 8MTV/17/171 is safe, if you run it safe with experienced pilots and flight engineers.
You just have to maintain it by the book (like any other machine).
The Poles are buying now 5 Mi-17 for Afghanistan, finally directly from Rosoboronexport (AFAIK).
Regarding the Mi-38, does the project has really a chance? When it started long time ago there was a big gap between it's capabilities and the good old Mi-8T but since then, the machine evolved into, for example MTV-5.
Arrakis
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Philadelphia PA
Age: 73
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Muscovite:
The disposable payload (fuel plus cargo/passengers) as a fraction of the total maximum weight of the helicopter is smaller for most Russian civil helicopters than it is for most Western civil helicopters.
At least for the Russian helicopters that I knew - that may have changed.
On the other hand, Russian helicopters with metal construction have a much more rugged airframe than most Western helicopters.
The disposable payload (fuel plus cargo/passengers) as a fraction of the total maximum weight of the helicopter is smaller for most Russian civil helicopters than it is for most Western civil helicopters.
At least for the Russian helicopters that I knew - that may have changed.
On the other hand, Russian helicopters with metal construction have a much more rugged airframe than most Western helicopters.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Croydon
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Mi-17 / Mi-8-MTV-1 (as endorsed by Shell Management) does have some funny features like the 'collector tank' above the APU. Not only a single point failure in the fuel system but a great way to spread a fire. So much for Shell's so called standards!
The UK military have used Mi-17s for Afghan related reasons:
Rick Ingham Photography - Project Curium - Boscombe Down Mi-17's
The UK military have used Mi-17s for Afghan related reasons:
Rick Ingham Photography - Project Curium - Boscombe Down Mi-17's
Squib all flying machines have some sort of compromise within own construction,
Mi 8 family too....
FYI AI-9 can be replaced with Saphire (PBS, EASA certified) APU,
no need for "collector",
and no just 3 start limit,
and ability to start up to 6000 m
and in flight run of air condition heat/cool
All is just question of few $ more
Mi 8 family too....
FYI AI-9 can be replaced with Saphire (PBS, EASA certified) APU,
no need for "collector",
and no just 3 start limit,
and ability to start up to 6000 m
and in flight run of air condition heat/cool
All is just question of few $ more
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If Mi-8/17 is so wrong then why everyday we receiving order and inquirey? 
India Looking to Lease Mi-17s
New Delhi, 1st November 2010
The Indian government is seeking to lease 13 twin-engine, armour-plated helicopters from private operators on wet lease for movement of troops in Maoist-hit areas and surveillance purpose. Helicopters of either MI-17 series or of equivalent capability, which can fly both at day and night, will be deployed in Andhra Pradesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal, possibly before the end of the year.
These choppers would be in addition to the existing fleet of about 20 Indian Air Force and BSF helicopters being deployed in Maoist-affected areas.
Six helicopter operators, including foreign companies, have showed interest to the Home Ministry's proposal under which choppers would be given on wet lease to the government for an initial period of one year extendable up to three years.
The helicopters would have a minimum airlift capability of 18-20 fully equipped, armed security personnel and fly to air destination at least for 400 km away or 200 km one way and return without refueling.
Govt to hire 13 private choppers for use in Naxal areas - Hindustan Times
India Looking to Lease Mi-17s
New Delhi, 1st November 2010
The Indian government is seeking to lease 13 twin-engine, armour-plated helicopters from private operators on wet lease for movement of troops in Maoist-hit areas and surveillance purpose. Helicopters of either MI-17 series or of equivalent capability, which can fly both at day and night, will be deployed in Andhra Pradesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal, possibly before the end of the year.
These choppers would be in addition to the existing fleet of about 20 Indian Air Force and BSF helicopters being deployed in Maoist-affected areas.
Six helicopter operators, including foreign companies, have showed interest to the Home Ministry's proposal under which choppers would be given on wet lease to the government for an initial period of one year extendable up to three years.
The helicopters would have a minimum airlift capability of 18-20 fully equipped, armed security personnel and fly to air destination at least for 400 km away or 200 km one way and return without refueling.
Govt to hire 13 private choppers for use in Naxal areas - Hindustan Times
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is what I tell you about Sudan. I can tell you exactly where in world there is waring going to happen according to orders for helicopters. I have told you next year they will begin to fight in the sudan south and also you expect increase to fighti in somali.
Now if you to use helicopter in war zone you need to have one strong to protect you and troop - the west helicopter can be big risk in this area.
Some you russian pilot if speak english you write here about the combat survive of our helicoptes!
"Moscow - Russia will sell to the Sudan until the end of the year, 10 x Mi-17 helicopters, said today (Monday) to the Interfax news agency a source in the sector of aviation.
Kazan Helicopters will provide equipment to Sudan nine Mi-17B-5 and one Mi-172 Hall, stated that source, saying that it is civilian versions of these devices."
Google Translate
Now if you to use helicopter in war zone you need to have one strong to protect you and troop - the west helicopter can be big risk in this area.
Some you russian pilot if speak english you write here about the combat survive of our helicoptes!
"Moscow - Russia will sell to the Sudan until the end of the year, 10 x Mi-17 helicopters, said today (Monday) to the Interfax news agency a source in the sector of aviation.
Kazan Helicopters will provide equipment to Sudan nine Mi-17B-5 and one Mi-172 Hall, stated that source, saying that it is civilian versions of these devices."
Google Translate
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nueva Zona De Aviacion General, Bogota, Colombia, is being awarded a $139,038,859 option year modification for rotary wing aircraft, personnel, equipment, tools, material, maintenance and supervision necessary to perform passenger and cargo air transportation services.
Work will be performed in Afghanistan, and the option will start Nov. 1, 2010, to be completed by Oct. 31, 2011. This contract was a competitive acquisition with 13 bids received.
Vertical de Aviacion
There is also some things happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iraq which we cannot say here but it involve large number of Mil aircraft but you will be hearing about it in news in middle of 2011.
Work will be performed in Afghanistan, and the option will start Nov. 1, 2010, to be completed by Oct. 31, 2011. This contract was a competitive acquisition with 13 bids received.
Vertical de Aviacion
There is also some things happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iraq which we cannot say here but it involve large number of Mil aircraft but you will be hearing about it in news in middle of 2011.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
News today!
Russian air company “Vertical-T” has begun air operations for the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) under the annual contract. For many years USAID has been involved in Afghanistan’s rehabilitation and support programs to promote the country’s economic and social development.
Helicopters Mi-8MTV-1 and Mi-8T of air company “Vertical-T” are taking part in the construction of Kajaki Dam Hydropower plant, providing power for 1,7 million residents of Helmand and Kandahar provinces. The dam is also intended for the irrigation in the Helmand River Valley.
Vertical T the Ми-8
Good lucks to our teams going to Afghanistans
Russian air company “Vertical-T” has begun air operations for the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) under the annual contract. For many years USAID has been involved in Afghanistan’s rehabilitation and support programs to promote the country’s economic and social development.
Helicopters Mi-8MTV-1 and Mi-8T of air company “Vertical-T” are taking part in the construction of Kajaki Dam Hydropower plant, providing power for 1,7 million residents of Helmand and Kandahar provinces. The dam is also intended for the irrigation in the Helmand River Valley.
Vertical T the Ми-8
Good lucks to our teams going to Afghanistans
@ ironchefflay
Helicopter Floats
Aerazur is the inventor of the Emergency Flotation System and with over 50 years of experience has its equipment fitted on helicopters worldwide. Military, Civilian and Offshore users of European or Russian made helicopters rely on us for safety of their crew as well as maintenance of their equipment.
Helicopter Floats Range Agusta Eurocopter Kazan - AB204 - SA330 - Mi8 - Mi17 - Mi172 - AB205 - AS332 - Ansat - AB212 - AS350
- AB412 - AS355 - EC225 - NH90
Aerazur is the inventor of the Emergency Flotation System and with over 50 years of experience has its equipment fitted on helicopters worldwide. Military, Civilian and Offshore users of European or Russian made helicopters rely on us for safety of their crew as well as maintenance of their equipment.
Helicopter Floats Range Agusta Eurocopter Kazan - AB204 - SA330 - Mi8 - Mi17 - Mi172 - AB205 - AS332 - Ansat - AB212 - AS350
- AB412 - AS355 - EC225 - NH90