Frank Robinson Lecture Tuesday 5th October
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Frank Robinson Lecture Tuesday 5th October
Date: Tuesday 5 October 2010
Venue: Royal Aeronautical Society, No 4 Hamilton Place, London W1
Time: 1800 (Followed by Q&A session and then a reception.)
Cost: Free to all - non members welcome.
The RAeS is next to the InterContinental Hotel.
Hyde Park Corner 3 mins, Green Park 5-6 mins.
Venue: Royal Aeronautical Society, No 4 Hamilton Place, London W1
Time: 1800 (Followed by Q&A session and then a reception.)
Cost: Free to all - non members welcome.
The RAeS is next to the InterContinental Hotel.
Hyde Park Corner 3 mins, Green Park 5-6 mins.
Tudor
I had just started to arrange to be in London for that when I realised I will be in Portugal at HeliTech.
I would have loved to have been there to hear him speak.
GS
I had just started to arrange to be in London for that when I realised I will be in Portugal at HeliTech.
I would have loved to have been there to hear him speak.
GS
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Stringfellow, could either you or someone ask the gentleman why it is that he doesn't fit tamper proof time recorders to his helicopters?
I have seen many comments about records falsification on the Robinson types. Perhaps he would sell many more parts if he could tab the hours. Some people have told me that they would like to see the hours being recorded on the collective instead of the engine, he may have a comment about that? Thanks.
I have seen many comments about records falsification on the Robinson types. Perhaps he would sell many more parts if he could tab the hours. Some people have told me that they would like to see the hours being recorded on the collective instead of the engine, he may have a comment about that? Thanks.
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no wind,,
il do my best certainly. in my short experience flying robbies i was not aware of the ability to tamper with the hour meters but its certainly food for thought. the 44 IS collective activated the 22 activated by rising oil pressure im led to believe. schools would have a fit if it changed as at min they get paid from rotor start to pulling the mixture on the 22.
all the best.
il do my best certainly. in my short experience flying robbies i was not aware of the ability to tamper with the hour meters but its certainly food for thought. the 44 IS collective activated the 22 activated by rising oil pressure im led to believe. schools would have a fit if it changed as at min they get paid from rotor start to pulling the mixture on the 22.
all the best.
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no wind - I have to agree with stringfellow. The 44's (raven & raven II) are collective activated, so it is normal for schools/pilots to add 0.1 to the Datcon time to allow for the start-up.
I was once told that it was possible to stop the datcon counting in the earlier 22's if you sacrificed one of your tach's as they used one of the tach circuits, but I believe this has been addressed and it is run off oil pressure now. I don't think most people/schools worth their weight would dare mess with the clocks anyway but i'm told it used to to common practice in the mustering/spraying game so that outback farmers could avoid maintenance costs
combine that with the manoeuvres they pull (no discredit to their ability) not surprised that the accident rate was high in that game.
Aucky
I was once told that it was possible to stop the datcon counting in the earlier 22's if you sacrificed one of your tach's as they used one of the tach circuits, but I believe this has been addressed and it is run off oil pressure now. I don't think most people/schools worth their weight would dare mess with the clocks anyway but i'm told it used to to common practice in the mustering/spraying game so that outback farmers could avoid maintenance costs
combine that with the manoeuvres they pull (no discredit to their ability) not surprised that the accident rate was high in that game.Aucky
so it is normal for schools/pilots to add 0.1 to the Datcon time to allow for the start-up.
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Gordy - Is that for real? that makes no sense, were talking collective activated aircraft yes? Where the whole start, warm up and pre-take off checks are not included in the recorded Datcon time? In the UK as soon as the rotors are turning you are piloting that aircraft and so it's only fair you should log it. In South Africa I saw schools adding 0.1 on a 22 (on the basis that even after the engine stops the rotors are turning and that your still piloting the aircraft for a few minutes, though this is somewhat taking the P155, and simply a way for the schools to make 10% extra for free on each training flight).
By that logic do they make you take 0.1 off the time off an oil pressure activated Datcon in a 22?
(I suppose, any excuse an afternoon court
)
(on the basis that even after the engine stops the rotors are turning and that your still piloting the aircraft for a few minutes, though this is somewhat taking the P155, and simply a way for the schools to make 10% extra for free on each training flight).By that logic do they make you take 0.1 off the time off an oil pressure activated Datcon in a 22?
(I suppose, any excuse an afternoon court
)
Aucky---Yes it is for real. The rules for logging "FLIGHT TIME" are different...here is the legal opinion:
“U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
APR 27 2007
(address omitted)
Dear Mr. (omitted),
This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.
Your three questions are:
1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?
2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?
3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?
The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "
ilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.
It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.
This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”
Federal Aviation Administration
APR 27 2007
(address omitted)
Dear Mr. (omitted),
This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.
Your three questions are:
1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?
2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?
3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?
The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "
ilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.
It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.
This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”
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Thanks, that's an interesting read. I'm not going to argue, and 100% accept that definition for an explicit understanding of the term "flight time" however I think it's reasonable to accept that one should be credited for the "flight time" + time that they are manipulating the controls with engine & rotors turning.
So.... I was joking when I asked before whether 0.1 is deducted in most 22's for training in the states
, but in all seriousness is it or has the 55% RPM take off been perfected
?? Alternatively is the metering method of a different type?
Aucky
So.... I was joking when I asked before whether 0.1 is deducted in most 22's for training in the states
, but in all seriousness is it or has the 55% RPM take off been perfected?? Alternatively is the metering method of a different type?Aucky
So.... I was joking when I asked before whether 0.1 is deducted in most 22's for training in the states , but in all seriousness is it
I have heard of some comparing the aircraft records with a student's logbook. There are other examiners who really do not understand these rules also.
I am no longer in the flight training industry, but am responsible for hiring and firing decisions. To be fair, the people I would be hiring have way more hours than minimums, but I do tend to ask them about their logging practices.