heli1

Bear in mind that Bristow completely rebuilt G-AYNP,with the Series 3 nose mod for the Gnome and new cranked tail.In fact the only original Mk3 bit was the centre section. To be really anoraky it was delivered to Westland at WSM in late'69 to have the structural changes made to the front end before going to Redhill by road to have the new tail boom and everything else fitted.
Modifying just the tail boom was a fairly simple operation and several of the late production RN Mk3s were retrospectively fitted under Mod 170 with the cranked version in service.It was standard from 1056 on the Mk7.

76fan

I also went through 705 as a stude and flew Whirlwind 3's XG585 and XG588 in October/November 1965 and I believe they both had the drooped tailboom then.

heli1

Whirlwind savvy.
HAR Mk 1 and Mk 3 RN with Pratt and Wright piston engines
HC Mk2 and Mk4 RAF Ditto
Series 1 Civil equivalent of HAR Mk 1...Bristow ,C Salvensen, Shell etc
Mk5 RN trials variant Mk3 with Alvis Leonides engine.
Mk HAS 7 RN with Alvis Leonides engine
Series 2 Civil equivalent....and military export.
MkHCC8 Queens Flight version of Series2
Mk9 RN conversion with Gnome turbine
Mk10 RAF new build and conversions with Gnome
Series 3 Civil equivalent....and military export.
Mk HCC12 Queens Flight version of Mk10

Nigel Osborn

When they modded the tail on the 3, did they also change the hydraulics & engine to make it a 7?

Savoia

Planko/Nigel: I 'get' the blade flapping phenomenon and I think most manufacturers have had to deal with it at some point in the development of their rotorcraft. Its the blade 'stretching' that I find amazing .. as in your 76 incident!

We had a driver come into the crew room one day telling us that the main rotor struck the boom on the D model 500 he was flying after he had shut down. Apparently a 'freak' gust of wind! It just glanced off the boom and evidently there was no significant damage done but, it was disconcerting to listen to the ease with which this happened.

When they stretched the Gazelle (just a couple of inches) they had to all but remove the vertical stabilisers, mind you the Gazelle blades are so 'bendy' one would think you could make animal shapes with them!

I once shut down a 206 and was unable to stop the main rotor (no rotor brake). They just kept on and on milling round (the wind was approx. 25-30kts and there was a slight updraft). After nearly 15mins (thinking the wind would drop at some point) I had to re-start and fly away telling the engineers (post and telecommunications working on repeaters) that I would be back for them later. I found a village green surrounded by trees .. a bumpy approach with the wind as it was but .. once below the tree line the worst of it was gone and I was finally able shut down.

To answer your question on the Salvesen Whirlwinds .. I'm not a 100% sure what the 'bump' is but .. I have a feeling it was an ADF antenna because the Salvesen whaling ships were fitted with NDB towers. I know the 'Whaling Whirlwinds' had a small amount a 'special' avionics (I think a marine band as well as the standard VHF radio) and then, as mentioned, the ADF.

I've only ever seen this tail-mounted housing on Antarctic Whirlwinds, as per the photos below:

And shown below with the cover removed:

Oh and yes .. I would agree with you and say that the antenna (or whatever it was) probably came pretty close to the main rotor on occasion!

CharlieOneSix

No they didn't - The HAR3's when I was on 705 were all with modded tails and had P&W engines but the HAS7 had the Leonides. I seem to remember it being much easier to fly than the HAS7 from the point of view of collective/throttle correlation. With the HAS7 in the cruise you were on the point of the cam and RRPM control was much more difficult than on the HAR3.

Also on the 7 you could close the throttle to idle to do a practice EOL but on the 3 you had to be really sure of getting to the spot for a practice EOL as the engine actually had to be shut down as if left at idle it would increase engine RPM when you raised the collective. HAS7 was cartridge start but for the life of me I can't remember what it was on the HAR3. Must have been electric start but the mind has gone blank after nearly 50 years!.

Nigel Osborn

In my time in 705 all the 3s were straight booms with an electric start radial engine. Also only 1 set of hydraulics plus an ECU which gave you engine oil pressure laterally on the cyclic, the theory being we should be strong enough to pull the collective & push forward on the cyclic! Quite tricky!
I think the engine was a Wright Cyclone??

The 7 had twin hydraulics & basically wouldn't fly if both failed unless you had the strength of Arnie. The cartridge was prone to pop the little disc in the nose; in Borneo we found the Malaysian 10 cent coin fitted perfectly! To prevent hydraulicing, we had to crank the engine 72 times to make sure none of the cylinders were full of oil! Great fun!

Savoia

There should probably be some sort of medal (or at least a few rounds of drinks at the local Aero Club) to those who had to fly aircraft which required starter cartridges!

Oldlae

After getting my Whirlwind licence at Redhill in September 1969, I had to supervise the removal of all the components from the 6 ex-Navy Whirlwinds. I understand that Westlands converted some of the airframes but Bristow's bought the jig and finished the job. I was abroad so I don't know the full details, I'm sure someone knows.

76fan

As an inexperienced student at the time, the only differences I can remember between the Whirlwind Mk.7 and the couple of Mk.3's on 705 in late '65 were the engine types and the "extra" experience of my instructor switching off the hydraulics and my flying the Mk 3 in manual before being sent off solo. I see that exactly half my Whirlwind time in training was on the 3 instead of the 7 and that on several days I flew in both Mks., so they must have been pretty similar. I believe both XG585 and XG588 went to Fleetlands in February 1966 for modernisation but presumably they were not modernised as both were awaiting disposal in September '67 and were sold to Bristows in October '69. Were these perhaps the last of the flying R.N. Mk.3's?

ShyTorque

I'm young enough to be able to say that I only flew the Gnome engined Mk10, just before they were replaced by the Gazelle.

We used to be required to qualify for solo engine-offs as basic students at 2 AFTS, RAF Shawbury. Was this also done on the earlier Whirlwinds? It certainly wasn't something that was done on the Gazelle basic course.

76fan

During my time in the RN, engine-off landings were only done when flying with a QHI. My first solo EOL was therefore at Tern Hill in a Whirlwind 10 on the QHI course.

heli1

You didn't need to practice engine offs in the early Whirlwind 7s.......oil circulation and overheating in the hover meant you got them for real!

Nigel Osborn

A true Whirlwind 3 story, at least I was told it was!
An instructor was taking a 705 student down to Predannack at 500 feet when the student asked what happens if the hydraulic fails in the cruise or faster. Now remember the requirement for hydraulics off was around 50 or 60 kts which is below the cruise speed. The instructor sped up to 90 kts & switched the hydraulics off. The nose pitched up & the 3 banked sharply to the left, making a perfect descending barrel roll & ended up tearing along a field at 60 kts! A typical granite Cornish hedge then stopped their forward motion very suddenly. The 2 pilots still strapped in their seats & the instrument panel took off clearing the hedge & ended up sitting side by side in the next field unscathed! The OAT gauge stuck in the tree about 25 yards away like a spear.
The instructor is reputed to have said " & that is what happens if you switch off the hydraulics going too fast"!
I'm assured this is true! Maybe bastOn knows more as this happened a few courses before us.

bast0n

Nigel

Apocrypha are statements or claims that are of dubious authenticity.

I think that this is one of them. I have never heard of it - does not mean it did not happen, but as I may have my faults, being wrong is not one of them.

There was a Hiller 12 E accident, I think on Goonhilly Down, where the crew flew unharmed through the bubble in their seats after an 'interesting' landing. Happy days.

ShyTorque

Another true Whirlwind story. A certain French exchange QHI arrived in UK not able to speak a word of English. Communication was difficult at times.... However, he was ex-Alouettes and until he flew the Whirlwind 10 he had only ever flown turbines with a manual throttle.

His students didn't often get to fly using the fuel computer - he preferred them to fly using the manual back-up.

To carry out a full to-the-ground EOL in the WW10 one had to take out the flight idle stop so that when the speed select was retarded the engine went right down to ground idle (if this wasn't done the engine responded as the collective was raised). A course colleague of mine was instructed by the French QHI to fly his GH in manual. He was told to carry out an EOL at Ternhill, as was the norm towards the end of the later sorties.

He took out the flight idle stop, lowered the lever and manually closed the throttle. No problem, EOL done. He was then told to take off and do another...but the aircraft was still in manual control. This wasn't the usual configuration post engine start but my fellow student pondered for a mere second and then opened the throttle. Apparently the flame from the jetpipe was quite impressive, but the engine was cooked!

This happened just before lunch. By 1430 on the same day there was a new order in the FOB which said EOLs must not be flown in "manual control"!

Nigel Osborn

David,

The student I believe was Nick Boyd, maybe if he's around he could verify. I've forgotten the instructor's name.

CharlieOneSix

When I was heard that story many moons ago I was told the instructor was Colin Moorcraft and the student was the late Nick Boyd. I think the former is down in your part of the world Nigel?

Edit: well that simultaneous post shows there might be some truth in it....!

Nigel Osborn

Thanks C16, I'm glad my memory bank is not entirely shot!! What happened to Nick, I had no idea he had died?

Colin I believe was flying in Hong Kong many years ago, another pilot I've lost contact with over the years!

Savoia

Some thoroughly enjoyable stories being retold!

Pray tell .. were there some similarities between the Westland Whirlwind and the US Army's H-19 'Chickasaw' which was a variant of the S-55?