Heli-Charter Open Day
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dover
Age: 36
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heli-Charter Open Day
Heli-Charter are hosting a fly in/open day on the 31st July from its base at Manston, Kent. We are hoping to attract as many helicopters as possible on the day, to provide a chance for pilots and the like minded people to get together to discuss helicopters. The Bell 222 will be on-site and will be able to provide flights for anyone who wishes to fly in the aircraft used in the popular TV series “Airwolf”.
Aircraft available to look around will include R22's, R44's, Bell Jetrangers, Bell Long Rangers, Twin Squirrels, Bell 222, Augusta 109's and hopefully afew more rare aircraft, some are for sale and deals may be available!!
We will offer tours around our maintenance and overhaul facilities, you will be shown around by one of our engineers so feel free to ask any technical questions.
If there is enough interest we will run a few competitions for pilots and their crews for those who wish to take part.
We have plenty of parking for well over 100 aircraft. Both Jet-A1 and Av-Gas will be available. PPR is required, please call our office to book in. Joining instructions will be sent by email once PPR has been received. Light refreshments will be available.
If you have an unusual aircraft or just fancy a fly out to enjoy a great day with other like minded people we would look forward to seeing you at our facility.
Aircraft available to look around will include R22's, R44's, Bell Jetrangers, Bell Long Rangers, Twin Squirrels, Bell 222, Augusta 109's and hopefully afew more rare aircraft, some are for sale and deals may be available!!
We will offer tours around our maintenance and overhaul facilities, you will be shown around by one of our engineers so feel free to ask any technical questions.
If there is enough interest we will run a few competitions for pilots and their crews for those who wish to take part.
We have plenty of parking for well over 100 aircraft. Both Jet-A1 and Av-Gas will be available. PPR is required, please call our office to book in. Joining instructions will be sent by email once PPR has been received. Light refreshments will be available.
If you have an unusual aircraft or just fancy a fly out to enjoy a great day with other like minded people we would look forward to seeing you at our facility.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dover
Age: 36
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys. We will be charging £40 per seat for a 5 min flight in the the 222, once the fuel has been taken out the rest will go to the Kent Air Ambulance as a donation. These are only trips in the 222 unfortunately we can not offer hands on flight atm. We are still working with PZL but due to the fact there have been afew changes within PZL it has slowed the whole project right down. Hopefully wont be too long before we can start selling the SW4.
Last edited by wind for sale; 22nd Jun 2010 at 16:06.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dover
Age: 36
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would be great to have the Rotorway here, the more the better. If you drop me an email I'll send more info about the day to you. [email protected]
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dover
Age: 36
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no public transport flights being carried out, the £40 for a flight is going towards covering the cost of fuel and anything left after will go to the Kent Air Ambulance.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So thats a no then.
If no public transport is taking place, are you viewing any flights as 'Charity Flights'?
In which case:
How are you deducting fuel costs from the charged fee if all proceeds should be passed to the charity? 
Did the CAA approve that plan when you sought their approval for the charity flights????
Or are the flights going to be viewed as private?
In which case are you advertising private cost sharing trips?
I'm confused
Seems you are too 
Presuming you are still the Ground Operations Manager it might be a good idea if you read this
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/Summa...009May2010.pdf
The Bell 222 will be on-site and will be able to provide flights for anyone who wishes to fly in the aircraft used in the popular TV series “Airwolf”.
We will be charging £40 per seat for a 5 min flight in the the 222, once the fuel has been taken out the rest will go to the Kent Air Ambulance as a donation.
There is no public transport flights being carried out, the £40 for a flight is going towards covering the cost of fuel and anything left after will go to the Kent Air Ambulance.
We will be charging £40 per seat for a 5 min flight in the the 222, once the fuel has been taken out the rest will go to the Kent Air Ambulance as a donation.
There is no public transport flights being carried out, the £40 for a flight is going towards covering the cost of fuel and anything left after will go to the Kent Air Ambulance.
In which case:
What constitutes a charity flight?
•The carriage of passengers on an aircraft for which any payments made are donated in their entirety to a registered charity.
•The carriage of passengers on a flight as a prize in a lottery, the total proceeds of which are donated to a registered charity.
•A sponsored flight for which the total proceeds are donated to a registered charity.
•The carriage of passengers on an aircraft for which any payments made are donated in their entirety to a registered charity.
•The carriage of passengers on a flight as a prize in a lottery, the total proceeds of which are donated to a registered charity.
•A sponsored flight for which the total proceeds are donated to a registered charity.
Did the CAA approve that plan when you sought their approval for the charity flights????Or are the flights going to be viewed as private?
Exception No 3 - Cost sharing (Article 267)
6.3.1 A flight will be a private flight for all purposes if the only payment is a contribution to the direct costs of the flight (not annual costs) otherwise payable by the pilot in command. This is provided –
(a) no more than four persons (including the pilot) are carried
(b) the pilot pays at least a proportionate share (e.g. if four persons are carried the pilot must pay at least 25% of the direct costs) and
(c) the flight has not been publicised in any way except within the premises of a flying club (in which case all the adult persons being carried in the aircraft must be members of that flying club).
6.3.1 A flight will be a private flight for all purposes if the only payment is a contribution to the direct costs of the flight (not annual costs) otherwise payable by the pilot in command. This is provided –
(a) no more than four persons (including the pilot) are carried
(b) the pilot pays at least a proportionate share (e.g. if four persons are carried the pilot must pay at least 25% of the direct costs) and
(c) the flight has not been publicised in any way except within the premises of a flying club (in which case all the adult persons being carried in the aircraft must be members of that flying club).
I'm confused
Seems you are too Presuming you are still the Ground Operations Manager it might be a good idea if you read this
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/Summa...009May2010.pdf
Last edited by Sliding Doors; 29th Jun 2010 at 19:07.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dover
Age: 36
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sliding Doors,
Can we please remember that we are trying to offer like minded people in the helicopter industry the chance to get together discuss and enjoy helicopters, which is something that we don't get the chance to do, due to the lack of clubs available and to enjoy looking at other helicopters and meeting new friends. We are laying on food, drink, not alcohol for the pilots before we receive a sermon on that! a few light heated competitions, the chance to discuss engineering matters with licensed engineers or flying problems with other pilots all at no cost to them, which all but a very very small minority have embraced.
We thank you for your due diligence regarding charity flights etc, of which we are well aware of the rules and it was going to be conducted accordingly, however not that I have to explain ourselves to you the flights in the 222 are now complimentary as the owner has decided that we have more important things to ensure the day goes well for all of the like minded visitors than spend time discussing the in and outs of trying to raise a little money for the Air Ambulance. Should anyone wish to make a contribution to the Air Ambulance this will simply be on a voluntary basis on the day, a real shame!
You may also be interested we have arranged for a couple of passes of a Spitfire today to further enhance the activities. We have Allouetes, R22, R44's, B206, A109, B222, Rotorway, Gazzelle to name a few types that are coming and interest is growing by the day, this is the sort of thing that the industry should do more often, all participants that are coming should recieve their joining instructions very soon, which is very very easy.
Can we please remember that we are trying to offer like minded people in the helicopter industry the chance to get together discuss and enjoy helicopters, which is something that we don't get the chance to do, due to the lack of clubs available and to enjoy looking at other helicopters and meeting new friends. We are laying on food, drink, not alcohol for the pilots before we receive a sermon on that! a few light heated competitions, the chance to discuss engineering matters with licensed engineers or flying problems with other pilots all at no cost to them, which all but a very very small minority have embraced.
We thank you for your due diligence regarding charity flights etc, of which we are well aware of the rules and it was going to be conducted accordingly, however not that I have to explain ourselves to you the flights in the 222 are now complimentary as the owner has decided that we have more important things to ensure the day goes well for all of the like minded visitors than spend time discussing the in and outs of trying to raise a little money for the Air Ambulance. Should anyone wish to make a contribution to the Air Ambulance this will simply be on a voluntary basis on the day, a real shame!
You may also be interested we have arranged for a couple of passes of a Spitfire today to further enhance the activities. We have Allouetes, R22, R44's, B206, A109, B222, Rotorway, Gazzelle to name a few types that are coming and interest is growing by the day, this is the sort of thing that the industry should do more often, all participants that are coming should recieve their joining instructions very soon, which is very very easy.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WFS,
I didn't suggest what you were trying to do was in any way negative. Or that it might not be of interest or use to other pilots.
Neither would I complain about money going to any air ambulance charity.
They were your posts (twice) that clearly stated that it wouldn't be conducted accordingly . Better to be advised before the event if perhaps you're risking interest from The Feds or problems should there be an incident. You went public first. Pity you can't appreciate that perhaps I was trying to help you 
Perhaps those who take the 222 trips will still voluntarily donate the £40 per seat to a worthwhile cause. So no 'shame' as now potentially without deductions for fuel costs the KAA will get more £
unless your poor faith in human nature is proved to be correct (Lets hope not as attendees are most probably the like minded individuals you've described).
I guess as the flights are now complimentary that my understanding of the situation was correct. I mean you could actually have originally posted that 222 rides were going to be free but that you'd be asking for a voluntary donation to the KAA
Guess nobody thought of that 
Will there now be a limit on the number of 222 trips that are available?
Alternatively, try reading the guidelines again!!!
Get the approval from the CAA and you could still legitimately charge for the seats then simply pass ALL the money taken to the KAA 
A more pertinent shame is that you cannot/have not realised that
It really isn't that difficult but like you said, you have more important things to concern yourself with regarding the day 
The 'real' shame is 'new name', 'same standard'
In future I'll leave you to your own devices. I do have better things to do with my time
I didn't suggest what you were trying to do was in any way negative. Or that it might not be of interest or use to other pilots.
Neither would I complain about money going to any air ambulance charity.
we are well aware of the rules and it was going to be conducted accordingly
. Better to be advised before the event if perhaps you're risking interest from The Feds or problems should there be an incident. You went public first. Pity you can't appreciate that perhaps I was trying to help you Perhaps those who take the 222 trips will still voluntarily donate the £40 per seat to a worthwhile cause. So no 'shame' as now potentially without deductions for fuel costs the KAA will get more £
unless your poor faith in human nature is proved to be correct (Lets hope not as attendees are most probably the like minded individuals you've described).I guess as the flights are now complimentary that my understanding of the situation was correct. I mean you could actually have originally posted that 222 rides were going to be free but that you'd be asking for a voluntary donation to the KAA
Guess nobody thought of that Will there now be a limit on the number of 222 trips that are available?Alternatively, try reading the guidelines again!!!
The carriage of passengers on an aircraft for which any payments made are donated in their entirety to a registered charity.
A more pertinent shame is that you cannot/have not realised thatIt really isn't that difficult
but like you said, you have more important things to concern yourself with regarding the day The 'real' shame is 'new name', 'same standard'
In future I'll leave you to your own devices. I do have better things to do with my time
Last edited by Sliding Doors; 1st Jul 2010 at 05:31.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Omnipresent
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst spoiling the good nature of the event would be unacceptable the above criticised are actually correct in their assertions. The charity benefit is admirable, see if gift aid can be added for ultimate benefit but don't take away fuel costs as it will give the 'campaign agin aviation' an excuse to stop proceedings.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is the joy of internet forums.
NigelH - any excuse for a rant at the CAA and or rules or an individual that tries to work within them. Your posts contain much for amusement, mostly, but normally little to nothing of any use.
Tarman, perhaps you misinterpret cutting sarcasm for arrogance. There is a thin line between the two.
Redplexus - As somebody like good old NigelH who'll insult strangers because they have nothing useful to bring to the discussion, trust me you'll be easier to spot. Paths crossing is unlikely as I dont 'hobby' fly and have no need of H300 or R44 ratings.
A brief search of this site brings up 214 references to charity flights, a fair proportion asking whats allowed. One of the most recent threads is this one
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/413...y-flights.html
from May 2010 showing how the legislation has changed and making charity flights easier.
The rules are there whether we agree or disagree with them. Ignorance is not an excuse the CAA often accept, and if 'we' choose to ignore the rules then I'd be more certain of them becoming more restrictive rather than less.
We can work to get the rules changed, but in the interim have little choice but to work with what we have. The rules aren't a buffet, we can't pick and choose which bits we fancy following.
A company publicly advertises (on a forum viewed by the CAA) an open day/get together - a commendable offering. They offer to donate some money to an air ambulance charity - even more commendable. What the uninformed seem to be forgetting is that the original postings come from a former AOC holding company, that's in the process of getting a new AOC issued. Nothing escapes the fact that as advertised the flights would, despite their aim, breach the rules leading to potential intervention pre/post event by the CAA - for the money the CAA want I wouldn't want to give them any excuse not to issue the forms.
Possible CAA intervention aside, equally as important would be any third party action in the event of an incident should any rules be found to have been broken. And lets not forget that by posting wrong information, others (be they companies or well meaning individuals) could follow suit and then find themselves on the receiving end of a prosecution also.
The flights are now completely free, so originally the owners only concern were fuel costs? In the grand scheme of things the fuel is a small proportion of the running costs. More probable is that the owner donated the aircraft 'dry' and that the operator is trying to save the fuel costs. Donating to charity doesnt provide carte blanche to obtain that money by any means, albeit the blinkered on this forum would no doubt find burglary acceptable so long as the profits, minus travelling costs, were donated to a worthwhile cause.
The irony Redplexus is that previous posts work to clarify the current rules, potentially help the operator from falling foul of the authorities, clear up any potential misunderstandings for others considering similar, and safeguard all the money taken going to the charity- so the charity don't need to lose out as WFS suggested. All of that is 100% of more value than your post.
NigelH - any excuse for a rant at the CAA and or rules or an individual that tries to work within them. Your posts contain much for amusement, mostly, but normally little to nothing of any use.
Tarman, perhaps you misinterpret cutting sarcasm for arrogance. There is a thin line between the two.
Redplexus - As somebody like good old NigelH who'll insult strangers because they have nothing useful to bring to the discussion, trust me you'll be easier to spot. Paths crossing is unlikely as I dont 'hobby' fly and have no need of H300 or R44 ratings.
A brief search of this site brings up 214 references to charity flights, a fair proportion asking whats allowed. One of the most recent threads is this one
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/413...y-flights.html
from May 2010 showing how the legislation has changed and making charity flights easier.
The rules are there whether we agree or disagree with them. Ignorance is not an excuse the CAA often accept, and if 'we' choose to ignore the rules then I'd be more certain of them becoming more restrictive rather than less.
We can work to get the rules changed, but in the interim have little choice but to work with what we have. The rules aren't a buffet, we can't pick and choose which bits we fancy following.
A company publicly advertises (on a forum viewed by the CAA) an open day/get together - a commendable offering. They offer to donate some money to an air ambulance charity - even more commendable. What the uninformed seem to be forgetting is that the original postings come from a former AOC holding company, that's in the process of getting a new AOC issued. Nothing escapes the fact that as advertised the flights would, despite their aim, breach the rules leading to potential intervention pre/post event by the CAA - for the money the CAA want I wouldn't want to give them any excuse not to issue the forms.
Possible CAA intervention aside, equally as important would be any third party action in the event of an incident should any rules be found to have been broken. And lets not forget that by posting wrong information, others (be they companies or well meaning individuals) could follow suit and then find themselves on the receiving end of a prosecution also.
The flights are now completely free, so originally the owners only concern were fuel costs? In the grand scheme of things the fuel is a small proportion of the running costs. More probable is that the owner donated the aircraft 'dry' and that the operator is trying to save the fuel costs. Donating to charity doesnt provide carte blanche to obtain that money by any means, albeit the blinkered on this forum would no doubt find burglary acceptable so long as the profits, minus travelling costs, were donated to a worthwhile cause.
The irony Redplexus is that previous posts work to clarify the current rules, potentially help the operator from falling foul of the authorities, clear up any potential misunderstandings for others considering similar, and safeguard all the money taken going to the charity- so the charity don't need to lose out as WFS suggested. All of that is 100% of more value than your post.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or that SD doesn't fly for recreation, regardless of any licence held.
You guys should share the 'soap box'. So many chips so few shoulders.
professional pilot in the forum title doesn't only mean licence type held
You guys should share the 'soap box'. So many chips so few shoulders.
professional pilot in the forum title doesn't only mean licence type held
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midlands
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote from WFS;
"We will be charging £40 per seat for a 5 min flight in the the 222, once the fuel has been taken out the rest will go to the Kent Air Ambulance as a donation".
Whilst WFS later protests that he is well aware of the rules for both cost sharing and charity flights, manifestly he is not or he would be familiar with the following extract from the current AIC on Charity Flights
(a) The carriage of passengers, which includes children of all ages, on flights for which no payment is made to the operator or pilot of the aircraft but for which the passengers make a payment, all of which is contributed to a registered charity;
It's worth noting that the rules for Charity Flights were introduced by the CAA after lobbying by commercial helicopter charter companies to prevent prevent illegal public transport flights being operated under a charity subterfuge.
Whilst WFS, and others, have taken umbridge at SD's style, they should be grateful for the content. SD didn't write the rules, he was merely reminding WFS of their existence and the need to operate within their framework.
"We will be charging £40 per seat for a 5 min flight in the the 222, once the fuel has been taken out the rest will go to the Kent Air Ambulance as a donation".
Whilst WFS later protests that he is well aware of the rules for both cost sharing and charity flights, manifestly he is not or he would be familiar with the following extract from the current AIC on Charity Flights
(a) The carriage of passengers, which includes children of all ages, on flights for which no payment is made to the operator or pilot of the aircraft but for which the passengers make a payment, all of which is contributed to a registered charity;
It's worth noting that the rules for Charity Flights were introduced by the CAA after lobbying by commercial helicopter charter companies to prevent prevent illegal public transport flights being operated under a charity subterfuge.
Whilst WFS, and others, have taken umbridge at SD's style, they should be grateful for the content. SD didn't write the rules, he was merely reminding WFS of their existence and the need to operate within their framework.