Helicopters and Volcanic Ash?

[volrider]

If the mountain Katla, which is only a few miles to the east of Eyjafjallajokull starts erupting, it will make this erupton look like a "campfire". This is a real possibility now because eruptions in Eyjafjallajokull mountain have been known to trigger eruptions in mount Katla. If that happens, we will not be having debate about if it is safe to fly in the UK like we do now, it will most likely not be safe or even clear enough to go VFR

That is what we all fear, if history repeats itself, flying will be the least of our worries

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Originally Posted by NigelH

Double Bogey - So Happy you don't work for me

WHY would you just break the rules and fly!!!

I am back to work Monday (as I have been OFF) If the government/met/NATS say the airspace is open I will fly no problem.

NigelH I guess you are frustrated as you have some kind of aviation charter business and if that is the case I am sorry that you are taking a hit with this.

I am not in that business. My job is to turn up, assess risks and fly. I am reasonably good at all normal aviation risks that apertain to our helicopter operation but have no clue about volcanic ash.......so I will leave that up to the expert (or at least more informed people than myself).

Just because you are taking a hit does make these decision worng!!!

For the record, I suspect that you would be the kind of person I would NEVER work for as you are probably the kind of guy who takes unecessary risks to turn a profit.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

MALABO

I presume that you would rather fly and get paid regardless!!!!!!!

I work for a good Company who take their responsibilities seriously.

Are you that dumb to think that not paying pilots when they cannot/will not fly would be a safe operating environment or do you just not care.

Jeeez.

I am off for a swig of VOLVIC!!!! (maybe a bit of Gin thrown in).

[nigelh]

CRAB, why do you beleive that the management should be able to determine when we should be flying (re "If I were an airline boss") if you actually work in civil aviation you would know that the management would want us flying regardless of what risks exists (generally) and it is only through sound regulation, hindisght and experience that systems are put in place to prevent this kind of attitude

You are quite obviously in the right job .
With your union style of chippiness against operators i dont think you would last long . And no , i dont believe that any operators want you to fly regardless of risk .... name one ?? They may just want you to some time use some common sense .

ps I havent cancelled a flight due to this ash cloud and continue to fly legally thankyou

[jeepys]

Risk taking.

What double bogey said is correct

"What is definitley sure is that no-one will be put at risk if aircraft do not fly in the ash cloud".

So why don't we all give up flying forever.
Why stop there. When it's snowing in Aberdeen then there should not be a car on the road. That would be safer surely DB.

The fact remains that not the whole of the UK has been affected equally. Shetland are suffering a lot more than Southend. Can we not have flexibility in this country?

DB, as far as working for a good company that does not take unnecessary risks, did Mr Bristow not take huge risks in his pioneering days. Yes, of course he did and that is how he built the company that exists today.

[Paul Chocks]

DOUBLE BOGEY,

Lets be clear, airspace IS open - VFR flight is perfectly legal, although caution is advised (rightly so). Look at the NOTAM.

It is only IFR, and therefore Class A, which is unavailable. The vast majority of helicopter flying is outside Class A, and that which is flown normally IFR can, if VMC pertain, be flown VFR.

You could rock up to work on Monday, with EXACTLY the same NOTAM in force that their is today and your company may ask and expect you to fly.

Regarding charter, from what I hear, demand has never been higher as all those stuck and with sufficient money are chartering helicopters!

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by jeepys

What double bogey said is correct

"What is definitley sure is that no-one will be put at risk if aircraft do not fly in the ash cloud".

So why don't we all give up flying forever.
Why stop there. When it's snowing in Aberdeen then there should not be a car on the road. That would be safer surely DB.

In a couple of words 'risk management'. We can understand and mitigate the risks of 'normal' flying, we cannot mitigate the risks of the ash problem as it's unprecedented. Where there is doubt there can be no doubt.

BD

[Bilbo Bagover]

France this afternoon closed their airspace for public transport VFR flights. For helicopters I think that closes all avenues for European charter work.
Bilbo

[nigelh]

Surely if you inspected the engines of the aircraft that have been continually flying over the last few days and find no damage there is your answer.....surely sending an aircraft up to all suspect areas and inspecting the engine after would work ?? Get it wrong , prove all these panickers correct and all you have done is damage an engine . Prove there is no problem and you could save this country many many millions and also save a lot of families, what is very likely a very very expensive nightmare, which could have been avoided . For people like DB they dont care as they are paid whatever happens and have no incentive at all to use judgement .
One question i would ask is ...how many rich people have been stranded either away or not able to get to their homes , yachts etc ????? Not many is the answer because they have continued to fly all over the world departing vfr......its alright for some and has been a bananza for some operators and good on them

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by nigelh

Prove there is no problem and you could save this country many many millions and also save a lot of families, what is very likely a very very expensive nightmare, which could have been avoided .

But we're not in that place yet. My heart doesn't bleed for those stranded away as they're safe on the ground. If the aircraft they flew on crashed because of the effects of ash I'm certain the remaining families would be vehement in their condemnation of those who allowed aircraft to fly with the ash risk. Not to mention that the costs would be far greater than those currently being incurred, it's not rocket science to figure out what's safe.

BD

[Nubian]

BDiONU,

Isnt it an ATC-forum you can play on, instead of adding fuel to the fire here on Rotorheads?? I think we have enough of the like amongst ourselfs with DB heading the pack?
When you keep on repeating DB "when there's doubt......" I can tell you, I DO want to go home at the end of the day. It seems as you think that we all are suicidal, as we are questioning the total ban on flying in some places. (in an earlier post I mentioned some paragliders in Norway grounded by the CAA)

Now I do have experience from flying in deserts, landing in zero vis when the dustcloud catches up (very noticable for machine and crew). I have seen what that does to an engine NOT equipped with sandfilters, but for all my flying in the sand I have flown helicopters WITH filters fitted and operating, and have been able to look inside my engines which is a big diffrence. Also with bladetape fitted which works very good and is an insanely cheap measure....

Now, I do understand perfectly well that flying through ashclouds is not a good idea (like the BA747, KLM, Finnish F18 etc. etc.) but if you do fly inn VFR CAVOK 1000 km away from any ash-cloud I have a hard time understanding the problems.
You earlier stated that the damages was well documented. I would like to know the following from those findings:
What were the consentration of ash in PPM, by voulme and/or weight? Partical size etc.??
There are very good sandfilter on the market which is widely in use, and this I'm sure would prevent the turbines of EMS helicopters of my friends from spitting lava....

[pasptoo]

The fact remains that not the whole of the UK has been affected equally. Shetland are suffering a lot more than Southend. Can we not have flexibility in this country?

So far today, I have been told of ash deposit on the ground from Shetland to Cornwall (and a few in between).

As far as flying VFR and "low level". If you need a microscope to see the particulate, then how can you see them flying in VMC ? The ASHTAM depicts the forecast area from SFC - FL100 covering most of the country and getting wider. How many of the aircrew on here are experiencing ASHTAMs for the first time? That is why it is good to debate, but don't just think you are bigger and better than Mother Nature! She will always win.

The meteorological sampling aircraft has found particulate throughout the the lower airspace, as have many of the RAF Met stations around the country. Jets on the ground in Germany with Engines covered in plastic.

Add to all this a few showers around and we have ourselves an nice abrasive paste for our engines to ingest. Then once inside and nice and warm it forms into a nice hard baked on matter ready for Stall/surge/failure as it sees fit! No harm done if you don't pay for spares 'n' repairs!

Several Engine manufacturers have also issued warning notices about avoidance and engineering procedures if encountered.

I think risk assessment of any possible contamination is the best way forward, even if it is 8/8 blue. Does it only affect the IFR and Controlled Airspace? You and I know where it is, but does the ash?

Is it not safer for a couple of days (or weeks) of no flying / precautionary planning rather than a couple of AAIBs with an out come of "We told you so!" ?

[Bertie Thruster]

1000 km away from any ash-cloud I have a hard time understanding the problems.

Waddington Met has been recording passing low level (varying from on the deck to 3000ft) particulate plumes('traces of ash') over the airfield for the last 2 days.

[BDiONU]

Originally Posted by Nubian

BDiONU,
Isnt it an ATC-forum you can play on, instead of adding fuel to the fire here on Rotorheads??

Yes there is an ATC forum but the folks on there seem to be much more safety oriented and risk averse than some of the posters in this thread. In addition there is comment about my company (NATS) who I am (strangely) keen to defend. Lastly this is a public forum, private forums exist if you don't want people like me bursting bubbles

BD

[Senior Pilot]

Rotorheads,

Just a reminder to play the ball, not the man. There is no need in this debate to be openly insulting of other contributors, whether you agree with them or not.

The volcanic ash cloud is a huge problem which is unlikely to go away for quite a while yet. There is a lot for us all to learn about the subject!

[volrider]

Nubian, your keeness to fly is to be comended, like everyone on this forum we want to return to our jobs ASAP, myself .... I have been unable to work in the aircraft since January due to medical reasons (not maddness either)
I was looking forward to my first shift Thursday and sadly I have had 3 days stuck on the ground looking at the helicopter sitting motionless But as much as I want to get up I know that we can't and I will have to wait a little bit longer. What I do know is that those that know better than me, do not think it's a good idea to risk engines, airframe and ulitmately lives just yet.. I will be happy to go when they say so and not before. Sand filters, not seeing the dust etc etc means jack to me as I know like a lot of folk here diddly sqaut about what is going on above us, so I will trust their expertise on this subject

[volrider]

Statement on Icelandic volcanic eruption: Saturday April 17, 2037
The volcanic ash cloud from Iceland is moving around and changing shape. Based on the latest information from the Met Office, NATS advises that the restrictions currently in place across UK controlled airspace will remain in place until at least 1300 (UK time) tomorrow, Sunday 18 April.

We will continue to monitor Met Office information and review our arrangements in line with that. We will advise further arrangements at approximately 0300 (UK time), Sunday 18 April.

Doesn't seem to be getting better

[slingyerhook]

Folk's,

I hope this has not been covered,but while reading the local rag today i noticed an article on the front page covering an RTC on the A9 in the Highlands and how the air ambulance (02A) Dalcross could not attend,but 137 could out of a similar area attend,is there a difference between RAF and civi in this predicament?.

A pilot i am not,so whats the score here,how does the ash affect airspace so close....or is it down to NOTAMS etc?.

SYH.

[[email protected]]

Slingy - some air ambulances are allowed to fly, others are not - it depends on the company policy. The SAR Force is allowed to fly for SAROps but only those outside of the red area on th VAC maps issued by the met office can fly for training.

I have flown twice on SAROPs today and there is a light dusting of particulate on the nose of the aircraft after each one - our engines do have sand filters but there is some discussion about whether the particulate size is too small to be filtered by them so we are comp washing the engines after each flight.

The long and short of it is that there is ash in the air but of very low concentration - is this a big short term risk to engines? I don't believe so or we wouldn't be flying at all.

I think the same is probably true for airliners providing they stay VMC - there may be long term engineering penalties but the cost of those is bound to be massively outweighed by the lost revenue of not flying at all.

Flying in VMC conditions that we have had for the last few days is not going to put out the flame on the engines no matter how much the doomsayers may claim - it might take some hours off them and they might need more frequent washes and inspections but this blanket ban on flying is ludicrous.

What this process has highlighted is the lack of adequate measuring capability and any form of assessment of particulate levels Vs risk to flying.

We are mainly relying on the met office who on Thursday were saying it wasn't a met issue at all and they were only advising the govt on the effects of the winds spreading the cloud.

[Oldlae]

Crab,
You are right, check the evidence, I hope that the your first stage compressor blades are inspected after each flight as I suspect the first signs of damage will show up there.